Is This a Hole in One?

[iacas]

@rehmwa, if the blue area is the hole, then the purple line is way too high - the ball has to be below the LIP of the putting green, not the putting green an inch or even half an inch from the hole itself.

[rehmwa]

I didn't think the picture is that unclear..... anyway - purple line is the extension of the putting green - blue is the plastic insert (always below the level of the green

the curved line is your sloppy edge to the cup

 

I'm just looking to see if I got the concept correct.  learning

Edited March 21, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

It has to be below the edge of the cup. Your purple line is wrong.

[rehmwa]

go ahead and delete my last two graphics if it's not clear.

I don't think I can do that.

thanks

Edited March 21, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

It’s clear. They’re just wrong.

Your purple line is too high. It’s at the lip. Not above it.

[Cantankerish]

What happens if the flagstick is removed here (or even straightened)?  Are we in agreement that the ball would fall?  It very much looks to me like it is being upheld by an out of position flag.

Assuming that we are in agreement, go ahead and try to replace the ball exactly where it was once the flag is removed - as stated by the rules.  That dang thing keeps falling in the hole.  There is a reason for that.  What is the rationale for calling it not holed in that case?

[NJpatbee]

It is cruel, but from what I have read about the rule and the pictures above it is likely not a hole in one.  That being said I do not like the rule and believe that the pin should be removed and the ball placed back in the same spot - if it falls in the hole then ace, otherwise tap in birdie.  But, I don't make the rules!

3 minutes ago, Cantankerish said:

What happens if the flagstick is removed here (or even straightened)?  Are we in agreement that the ball would fall?  It very much looks to me like it is being upheld by an out of position flag.

Assuming that we are in agreement, go ahead and try to replace the ball exactly where it was once the flag is removed - as stated by the rules.  That dang thing keeps falling in the hole.  There is a reason for that.  What is the rationale for calling it not holed in that case?

I was typing as your post came up and I almost duplicated your post!  Sorry.  

[billchao]

27 minutes ago, Cantankerish said:

What happens if the flagstick is removed here (or even straightened)?  Are we in agreement that the ball would fall?  It very much looks to me like it is being upheld by an out of position flag.

Assuming that we are in agreement, go ahead and try to replace the ball exactly where it was once the flag is removed - as stated by the rules.  That dang thing keeps falling in the hole.  There is a reason for that.  What is the rationale for calling it not holed in that case?

The rules are clear on this:

It doesn't say replace the ball "exactly" in its original spot. It says on the lip.

[burr]

Ace - that shot falls if the pin moves, whether removing or straightening.  @Rustuk, please give us details on hole, shot, club, GREAT SHOT !

[DaveP043]

I'm not happy that we're arguing about (OK, discussing) the definition of "below the surface of the putting green."  I can understand each of the definitions offered, but I can't tell which one the rules specifically envision.  Or more probably, the rules don't envision a worn or depressed area immediately surrounding the hole, which is sadly a too common occurrence.  Less common is that severely tilted flagstick.  If I was in your group, I'd have called it an ace, and had a pint on you.

[bkuehn1952]

If in @RustUK's opinion part of the ball was in the hole, then it is a hole-in-one in my book.  Photos are not 3 dimensional and often are misleading.  He was there and it is his and his playing companion's call. The fact that he bought drinks just further confirms my opinion. 😉

Congratulations.

 

[Cantankerish]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

The rules are clear on this:

It doesn't say replace the ball "exactly" in its original spot. It says on the lip.

It is specific, as you say.  But the part about replacing the ball on the lip follows an intervening “if”.  That is, you are referencing a procedure to follow “if” the ball is not holed.  I say it is holed, so I don't get to that "if".  I look at that image and I see a ball being propped up by a flag.  That can only happen if it is beyond 50% over the hole.  Rehmwa may have goofed the pics, but the basic mathematics of his argument are entirely correct.  If the ball is beyond 50% over the hole, it must, by mathematical reasoning, have some portion below the surface of the green.  

 

Of course, a simple test would just be to straighten the flag.  The ball will only fall if it is indeed beyond 50% over the hole.

Ace.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Cantankerish
fat finger

[RemyM]

Rule 13.2

a. Leaving Flagstick in Hole

If you make a stroke with the flagstick left in the hole and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies.

The decision to have the flagstick in the hole must be made before your stroke, by either leaving the flagstick in the hole or having a removed flagstick put back.

In either case, you must not try to gain an advantage by deliberately moving the flagstick to a position other than centred in the hole. If you do so and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, you get the general penalty.

 

So you are allowed to center it before your stroke but after would not effect that stroke just played.

I guess the closest way to tell if any part of the ball is below the hole is to take your scorecard and slide it over the hole from the opposite side of the ball and if it touched the ball before reaching the other side of the hole, part of the ball is below the surface.  So back to the OP, if in his determination any part of the ball was below the hole and his opponent or fellow competitors with him don't disagree it is deemed hole.

[billchao]

2 hours ago, burr said:

Ace - that shot falls if the pin moves, whether removing or straightening.  @Rustuk, please give us details on hole, shot, club, GREAT SHOT !

That's not how the rule is written. It no longer says anything about straightening or removing the pin.

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

If I was in your group, I'd have called it an ace, and had a pint on you.

Yes, my opinion might be different if I was in his playing group as well 😉

1 hour ago, Cantankerish said:

I look at that image and I see a ball being propped up by a flag.  That can only happen if it is beyond 50% over the hole.

It's just a ball wedged under a leaning flagstick. Why can that only happen if more the half the ball is in the hole?

1 hour ago, Cantankerish said:

Of course, a simple test would just be to straighten the flag.  The ball will only fall if it is indeed beyond 50% over the hole.

Or if there's a depression on the lip. Pretty clear by the picture that hole does not have a clean lip.

Maybe moving flagstick away causes the ball or oscillate off of a blade of grass just enough to get it to move a millimeter or two and into the hole. There are reasons that ball would move when you move the flagstick other than "it must be holed".

[Buckeyebowman]

12 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

Isn't the procedure to carefully remove the flag stick and see if it drops? 

It's not good as is, but it looks like it's got a chance to me.

By the way @RustUK, good job getting that ball there. Also, I haven't seen that shade of green in several months now.

I thought that if the flagstick was leaning excessively due to wind or being improperly replaced in the hole, you were allowed to "center" the flagstick in the hole and if the ball fell in, hole in one! 

EDIT: OK, quoted mcanadiens from the first page, and came here and saw Cantankerish's post with a quote of the rule. "If any PART of the ball is in the hole BELOW THE SURFACE OF THE PUTTING GREEN, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is NOT below the surface. 

A plain reading of this says that if even a 1 micron thickness of the ball lies below the surface of the green, the ball is holed. All right! Let's get out our microscopes and micrometers! And what constitutes the surface of the putting green? The top of the grass growing from the soil, or the soil from which the grass is growing! How can these things be determined? 

If the quote is from the New, Improved, SIMPLIFIED rules of golf well, way to simplify things guys! 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Buckeyebowman

[DaveP043]

14 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I thought that if the flagstick was leaning excessively due to wind or being improperly replaced in the hole, you were allowed to "center" the flagstick in the hole and if the ball fell in, hole in one! 

That was the old rules, the new ones are revised in that regard.

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I thought that if the flagstick was leaning excessively due to wind or being improperly replaced in the hole, you were allowed to "center" the flagstick in the hole and if the ball fell in, hole in one! 

For the umpteenth time now, no. It’s 2019. The Rules changed.

It is not holed and replacing it on the lip requires a second stroke.

@DaveP043 the definition is at the lip. The “corner” there. If it’s soft, it’s soft and thus lower than it would be otherwise. But it’s that “corner.”

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

For the umpteenth time now, no. It’s 2019. The Rules changed.

It is not holed and replacing it on the lip requires a second stroke.

@DaveP043 the definition is at the lip. The “corner” there. If it’s soft, it’s soft and thus lower than it would be otherwise. But it’s that “corner.”

I respect your superior knowledge and experience with the rules, but the rules do not make that definition.  The definition of the putting green doesn't provide any clarification.  I am doing my best to read just what the words say, and interpret them accordingly.