A Question for the 200-220 Yard Drivers, About Low Scores

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

That's true, Erik. There is one course I know in my area that funny enough is less than 6300 yards and has 3 par 4s over 450 yards.

Weird, but yeah… the front is basically a 6600 yard course… at par 70! Then the back is under 6000.

Were they built at two different times, those nines?

[onthehunt526]

30 minutes ago, iacas said:

Weird, but yeah… the front is basically a 6600 yard course… at par 70! Then the back is under 6000.

Were they built at two different times, those nines?

I believe so. The course is also strange in the fact that the 9th doesn't come back to the clubhouse. So the high school team up there plays the 1st-5th holes then 15th-18th holes (the 5th green is right next to the 15th tee). The second nine also has 3 par-threes which probably shortens it about 200 yards.

Since this is a question for 200-220 yard drivers I thought it was relevant because some courses have these big long par-4s and they're under 6300 yards.

There's another one in my area that's only slightly longer (6400 yards) and has 2 par-4s in the 440 yard range and 3 par 5s that are 543, 576, and 595 respectively. (The short par-5 is 492).

As you were saying, the average length hole on a 6,300 yard course is 350 yards. One who drives it 200-220 we'll say should play from roughly 5,800-6,000 yards (200 is 5300-5700, 225 is 6000-6200). And some older courses (Canasawacta as my example) even at 6,043 yards from the whites has 3 monster par-4s. 443, 439, 452. It can happen that way sometimes. Because the fifth par-3 makes the average smaller and the 3 par 5s are not very long. The average comes down as well.

Funny, but true story in that same League Championship I hit 3-wood/5-iron pin-high in two on the 5th hole (downwind uphill) (494 yard, par 5) the same day I hit 3-wood/4-iron to the 7th (469 yard, uphill par 4 into the wind).

The fifth has a lot of room (I suppose I could have hit my driver) but the 7th is tight. The fairway is maybe 20 yards wide in the driver landing area. (I hit it farther high school days, but not consistently where I could find it.) There are woods to the left and miss the fairway to the right you have a 220 yard shot from a downhill sidehill lie to a green, 30 feet above you. 

Erik, I don't know. You would probably get 4 4s from 4-7 at Cansawacta, I sure as hell wouldn't. 4 iron second shots on 4 and 7 from hanging lies, no, thank you. I'd have to eagle the fifth just to make up for making 6 at the 4th. A 200-220 yard driver would probably be playing 4 and 7 as par-5s and 6 would be very long though the tee shot is elevated and down the same Hill as the 7th is up. 

Bottom line is if you are playing from tees that you have 3 par-fours that you can't reach in regulation. You're playing way too far back. But sometimes, you just can't move up.

[DrvFrShow]

On 5/9/2019 at 12:04 PM, onthehunt526 said:

 

Bottom line is if you are playing from tees that you have 3 par-fours that you can't reach in regulation. You're playing way too far back. But sometimes, you just can't move up.

What they should do is what a my home course did. The green tees 5600. The white tees 6100. The blue tees 6500. They made a white/green course (5850) and a white/blue course (6300) in addition. 

[leftybutnotPM]

On 5/5/2019 at 12:57 AM, YoungTad said:

 

Im just wondering, for us amateurs who can’t hit distance, how do you handle 450 yard par 4’s?

 

 

You expect bogey but hope to 1 putt. You may even be very happy to hit three solid shots and 2 putt for bogey. That would be normal.

You will get a shot on that hole for your handicap 100% of the time. Why would you expect to hit long par 4s in regulation?

Not everyone has the option to play from shorter tees.

On 5/6/2019 at 3:26 AM, benharris said:

Quick question to those who would play a par four like this as if it were a par five.

Why not just move to a more forward set of tees? Or play a hybrid tee setup?

I do not understand the mindset of stepping up to a par 4 and just accepting that bogey is your best realistic score. It just seems like a stressful way to play golf. I know that if I was was playing some monster of a course where I was playing long irons/hybrids/woods into all the greens after hitting good drives that I would really not be having fun.

You would probably be unable to reach 30 or 40% of par 4s on championship courses from the back tees if you hit it 250 yards off the tee.  A person who hits it 200 yards is not reaching a SINGLE par 4 in 2 at Augusta. And why would they expect to?

Edited May 11, 2019 by leftybutnotPM

[onthehunt526]

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

What they should do is what a my home course did. The green tees 5600. The white tees 6100. The blue tees 6500. They made a white/green course (5850) and a white/blue course (6300) in addition. 

Julia that's brilliant, except some of the older courses that only have red, white, and blue tees. And the ladies tees are sometimes 100 yards or more ahead of the whites.

[NJpatbee]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:22 AM, Lihu said:

Even if you move to the gold tees, I can guarantee that you’ll have more fun. 😊

Green is a great idea! Honestly, unless you shoot in the 70s is doesn’t make a lot of sense to play the white tees...

I am starting to embrace the idea of moving up.  I played yesterday from the whites and only had 1 par and had to scramble to shoot a 91.  Now, I do not get any better than mid-80’s but it struck me how often my approach shot on par 4’s required a 2-4 hybrid to get the required distance and most times I am not on the green.  Perhaps at age 67 it is time!

[billchao]

56 minutes ago, NJpatbee said:

I am starting to embrace the idea of moving up.  I played yesterday from the whites and only had 1 par and had to scramble to shoot a 91.  Now, I do not get any better than mid-80’s but it struck me how often my approach shot on par 4’s required a 2-4 hybrid to get the required distance and most times I am not on the green.  Perhaps at age 67 it is time!

Past time, IMO. If you're hitting long hybrids regularly for your approach shot, you're not playing from the correct tees.

[benharris]

8 hours ago, leftybutnotPM said:

You would probably be unable to reach 30 or 40% of par 4s on championship courses from the back tees if you hit it 250 yards off the tee.

Which courses? You know those courses can vary in length quite a bit? You talking Torrey PInes South or something like TPC Deere Run. On TPC Deere Run you'd be unable to reach just two par 4s in two. Even on Torrey PInes you's still be able to get on six of the ten par 4s in two.

 

9 hours ago, leftybutnotPM said:

A person who hits it 200 yards is not reaching a SINGLE par 4 in 2 at Augusta. And why would they expect to?

 I assume you're talking about hitting from the masters tees which is an absolutely ridiculous premise. c'mon man.

Playing from the members tees is going to allow a chance for GIR on at least 3 holes, maybe 6 if you count 14, 17, and 18 which play 380, 370, and 385 respectively. I understand that after a 200 yd drive a 185 yard approach probably won't work out but I included them just in case.

9 hours ago, leftybutnotPM said:

Not everyone has the option to play from shorter tees.

Maybe not everyone, though I'd wager that MOST have the option.

There are, of course, times when one must play from a pre determined set of tees in an event/tournament. General play though? Move forward. And don't tell me you can't move forward unless you're already at the ladies tees.

[G-off]

^^^this, moving up is fine that is unless its tournament time, I can get around 6-6200 depending on layout  but go play where its 6500 and it becomes really tough.  Played last year as I was at the top of my age group with 22 year olds that were in my handicap group hitting 5 irons 220 off the tee hard to compete with that.  This same tournament has 30+ caps playing the same distances, seems there would be an easier way.

[leftybutnotPM]

6 hours ago, benharris said:

 

 I assume you're talking about hitting from the masters tees which is an absolutely ridiculous premise. c'mon man.

 

Maybe not everyone, though I'd wager that MOST have the option.

There are, of course, times when one must play from a pre determined set of tees in an event/tournament. General play though? Move forward. And don't tell me you can't move forward unless you're already at the ladies tees.

My point is that playing a long course with unreachable par 4s should not lessen the experience to the extent that it is pointless. It is possible to moderate one's own ego. That's what handicaps are for. I would love to play any course from the back tees. It would be brutal, but so what? I'm not  a long hitting pro. A player who hits it 230 yards off the tournament tees at Augusta is not reaching any par 4s in 2 unless he hits his 3 wood 220. So what? That's golf. It's not a ridiculous proposition. 

I play in Australia. You don't choose your tees. Everyone in competition plays from the same tees. This means that on most courses there are going to be many par 4s where only longer hitters can reach them in two. Everyone else gets a shot (or two) on those holes with their handicap.

I agree with the concept of everyone having a chance at a  GIR on pretty much every hole. This would make it more fun and accessible. But this is why people like the deluded chap on the Mackenzie Tour dream thread and many like him think they are better than they are. They think they are low to mid 70 shooters and then they play at  a proper course from the back tees and they wonder why they can't break 90. I played recently with two guys in their 90s. Both off 23 or 23. Both had no trouble hitting par 4s in 3 and playing close to their handicap. When I play courses in tough conditions with long holes I accept the fact that I can't reach them in regulation - just as I accept that a 350 metre par 4 that can be reachable for Rory or Dj from the tee is not for me. I don't go and look for a tee 220m from the green to give myself the same chance.

Edited May 11, 2019 by leftybutnotPM

[tehuti]

20 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

What they should do is what a my home course did. The green tees 5600. The white tees 6100. The blue tees 6500. They made a white/green course (5850) and a white/blue course (6300) in addition. 

On most of our local courses it’s Blue or white. That’s it, and both are well over 6,100 yards.

[DrvFrShow]

I play green or gold on the courses in my area. The "red" are too short. White, too long. Well I could play the white given distance but I'm not breaking 80 either so what's the point in moving back a set? So I don't break 90 anymore?

 

[gjunkie57]

On 5/9/2019 at 3:13 AM, gjunkie57 said:

I have never seen a par 4 of 450 yds. If I did I would play as a 5. Drive 220, FM 160, then wedge on from 70.

 

Update.  Played Inniscrone in Pa.  which has a 440 yd par 4, hole 17. Played it exactly like above.  With the two OB shots thrown in.  As soon as I looked at the hole I was shook.   Trees left and right.  Landing are obscurred.  Downhill sloping fairway to a high grassy area then uphill to the green.    This thing is the stuff of nightmares.  I am still not sure how to attack it.  

[Shindig]

43 minutes ago, gjunkie57 said:

Update.  Played Inniscrone in Pa.  which has a 440 yd par 4, hole 17. Played it exactly like above.  With the two OB shots thrown in.  As soon as I looked at the hole I was shook.   Trees left and right.  Landing are obscurred.  Downhill sloping fairway to a high grassy area then uphill to the green.    This thing is the stuff of nightmares.  I am still not sure how to attack it.  

Okay, there are two situations at work here:

* You have a high handicap.

* This is a tough hole.

Suppose you were going to play that course regularly.  Think about what the longest club you believe you can get into play off the tee is.  Note that I didn't say "in the fairway."  Rough is fine, unless it's the thick stuff you can only pitch a sand wedge out of.   A fairway bunker isn't, nor is behind trees.  

Now, what's the longest club you can hit on your second shot, again keeping it in play?  Out of hazards, but rough is fine if you can advance the ball from that rough.

Similar for your third shot, and your fourth if necessary.  I say fourth because I want you to mentally allow yourself to know that if you have to hit three long game shots in a row, there's a chance you'll mishit one.  Allow for it and plan to forgive yourself.  There's a time to improve your swing, and that should be a goal, but while playing this hole is not the time or place.

Okay, priority on your fifth shot:  on the green.  Close to the pin is nice, but if you're within 25 feet of the pin, consider it a win.

Now putt.  

Could you make an 8?  Sure, this is hard hole and you're a high handicap.  

Are you likely to make a 4?  No, but this isn't really a par-4 for you.  It's barely a par-4 for me and I'm about half your handicap.  If you walk away with a 4, think of it like a birdie, not that you somehow managed a par.  I would.

An 8 isn't a great score.  But a 7 is in the cards with three decent (not great, just kept in play and advance the ball) shots, and a 6 isn't out of the question.  And since this is really a par-5 for you, and a bogey on any hole is a victory at this point, that's a step in the right direction.

And as your swing improves, you're far more likely to get within pitching distance on your second shot, and that'll turn three strokes into two.  And it won't just be on this hole.

In case you think this is talking down to a high handicap, I want to assure you it isn't.  I still write out personal par values for many holes.  The goal on a golf hole isn't to make par, it's to make the lowest score you can make that day with what you brought with you.  

On my home course, I treat one of my par-3s as a par-3.5 and three of the par-4s as par-4.5s.  

[gbogey]

1 hour ago, gjunkie57 said:

Update.  Played Inniscrone in Pa.  which has a 440 yd par 4, hole 17. Played it exactly like above.  With the two OB shots thrown in.  As soon as I looked at the hole I was shook.   Trees left and right.  Landing are obscurred.  Downhill sloping fairway to a high grassy area then uphill to the green.    This thing is the stuff of nightmares.  I am still not sure how to attack it.  

One thing that might help here (and probably other golfers as well) is to learn to hit a little knock down shot with your longest iron.  Just a swing that is 3/4's straight up and back down and advances the ball down the fairway.  For example, I hit my 5i about 175 but with this knock down it will go about 150-160.  It is hard to hit the ball wide right or left with this shot (which is why I use it).  It also can be difficult to control the distance so I don't use it much to approach greens.  But I use it all the time on par 5's and to get back into position on par 4's after a bad drive.  In all honesty, I developed this shot for different reasons earlier in my playing career, but I still use it all the time.

[Osnola]

450 yard hole...driver 210, leaves me 240 yards....I hit 2 pitching wedges and hope the second one gets me on the green and the worst I do is 2 putt for a bogey....thats my game...

[Shindig]

2 minutes ago, Osnola said:

450 yard hole...driver 210, leaves me 240 yards....I hit 2 pitching wedges and hope the second one gets me on the green and the worst I do is 2 putt for a bogey....thats my game...

If you hit a PW 120 yards, why not hit a 6-iron for the second shot and leave yourself a pitch instead of a full wedge?  You'd probably hit the green, and closer to the pin, far more often with the latter strategy. 

[gjunkie57]

10 hours ago, Shindig said:

Okay, there are two situations at work here:

* You have a high handicap.

* This is a tough hole.

Suppose you were going to play that course regularly.  Think about what the longest club you believe you can get into play off the tee is.  Note that I didn't say "in the fairway."  Rough is fine, unless it's the thick stuff you can only pitch a sand wedge out of.   A fairway bunker isn't, nor is behind trees.  

Now, what's the longest club you can hit on your second shot, again keeping it in play?  Out of hazards, but rough is fine if you can advance the ball from that rough.

Similar for your third shot, and your fourth if necessary.  I say fourth because I want you to mentally allow yourself to know that if you have to hit three long game shots in a row, there's a chance you'll mishit one.  Allow for it and plan to forgive yourself.  There's a time to improve your swing, and that should be a goal, but while playing this hole is not the time or place.

Okay, priority on your fifth shot:  on the green.  Close to the pin is nice, but if you're within 25 feet of the pin, consider it a win.

Now putt.  

Could you make an 8?  Sure, this is hard hole and you're a high handicap.  

Are you likely to make a 4?  No, but this isn't really a par-4 for you.  It's barely a par-4 for me and I'm about half your handicap.  If you walk away with a 4, think of it like a birdie, not that you somehow managed a par.  I would.

An 8 isn't a great score.  But a 7 is in the cards with three decent (not great, just kept in play and advance the ball) shots, and a 6 isn't out of the question.  And since this is really a par-5 for you, and a bogey on any hole is a victory at this point, that's a step in the right direction.

And as your swing improves, you're far more likely to get within pitching distance on your second shot, and that'll turn three strokes into two.  And it won't just be on this hole.

In case you think this is talking down to a high handicap, I want to assure you it isn't.  I still write out personal par values for many holes.  The goal on a golf hole isn't to make par, it's to make the lowest score you can make that day with what you brought with you.  

On my home course, I treat one of my par-3s as a par-3.5 and three of the par-4s as par-4.5s.  

Thanks for the advice.  I struggle with blind shots and this hole had all my frights (trees, ravines, blind spots, ...). As I ponder that hole and my current swing and distances a 6 would be good for me.