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hoselpalooza

Who Pushes Off With Their Trail Leg?

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1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

just so we're clear, you're saying that the PhD director of research at swing catalyst is wrong about this?

do you want me to toss out more data published by other PhD's which supports the fact that golfers, to some extent, push off of their right side? 

Yes, PHD doesn’t mean they are 100% correct. There have been plenty of PHD’s in the history of PHD’s who are wrong. 

Sure, go ahead. I’ve got time to burn reading.

 

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31 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

@iacas, you might want to re-up on your swing catalyst certification.

image.thumb.png.5a0c86b2c8573b616570fae64aa0f4db.png

image.thumb.png.64b14c6d37221696b8996b5d6df6e774.png

 

 

source: https://carolinas.pga.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/03/Dr.-Scott-Lynn-PhD-Swing-Catalyst.pdf

 

Here's a golf swing with no GRF.  The only thing missing in this swing is friction with the ground, aka GRF.  His torso swings one way, his legs move the other.  Put something, like ground, to stop the legs, and he has a normal golf swing. Your torso muscles moving are the original force, which translates through the legs and into the ground to create the opposite force.

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5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

 because I DON’T know, physics

Fixed that for ya! 

I do however. I didn’t just google the word  “Physics” on the internet or pull up random YouTube videos and completely misunderstand them as you did. 

For someone who is not brave enough to post your own handicap, you sure seem to know more about the golf swing than anyone ever. Must be wonderful to be you.

Again, your schtick is getting really old.

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11 hours ago, boogielicious said:

But as you can see in the video, as soon as I begin the downswing, my right knee bends

Just to be fair, in that picture, you're right knee cannot extend, because it's almost completely straight by the end of the backswing. In other words, it would be impossible for you to push off with any significant force. 🤔

Edited by chspeed

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5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

Imagine trying to throw a baseball, or swing a golf club, while standing on ice.

 No, imagine doing those maneuvers with your trail foot on ice. Or...as @DrMJG posted, a guy with no trail leg at all.

Edited by Vinsk

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On 6/8/2019 at 8:21 AM, iacas said:

for my daughter's tournament

Good luck to your daughter!

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1 hour ago, chspeed said:

Just to be fair, in that picture, you're right knee cannot extend, because it's almost completely straight by the end of the backswing. In other words, it would be impossible for you to push off with any significant force. 🤔

But it is not fully extended. Most PGA pros straighten their rear leg in the backswing and immediately start bending it at the start of the downswing. This action indicates they aren’t pushing off. This has been said many times in the posts above. To push off, you have to extend the leg. 

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7 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

This action indicates they aren’t pushing off. This has been said many times in the posts above. To push off, you have to extend the leg. 

Yep, those who have supported the push off opinion have not have any response to that point. 

 

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6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yep, those who have supported the push off opinion have not have any response to that point. 

 

Further, wouldn't we see a spike (whether steady or explosive) in pressure on a GRF plate under the trail foot if this were true?  The golf swing is not a lateral "juke" like in football or basketball; in such a move, we would see a push-off.

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1 hour ago, chspeed said:

Good luck to your daughter!

She played well. I popped on long enough to see @phillyk's post above, add that comment, and get a notification that @hoselpalooza had been given a mild warning once again. I just got home, mowed the lawn and am sitting down to catch up on email, etc.

She played well today. Finished on 18 with a tap-in eagle and shot the fourth lowest score of the day (rounds 1-3 were all just one stroke better).

1 minute ago, ncates00 said:

Further, wouldn't we see a spike (whether steady or explosive) in pressure on a GRF plate under the trail foot if this were true?  The golf swing is not a lateral "juke" like in football or basketball; in such a move, we would see a push-off.

Saw that reply as I was typing mine up, and yes, we would.

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13 minutes ago, iacas said:

She played well today. Finished on 18 with a tap-in eagle and shot the fourth lowest score of the day (rounds 1-3 were all just one stroke better).

Awesome!  Nice playing!  I hope to enjoy watching my little ones enjoy the game as well (mine are 4 and 2).

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Baseball pitchers do not "push" off the mound.  They step in the direction of the plate and, as I said before, some of them (or their coaches) describe that as a "push".  It doesn't matter, at the end of the day, how an individual accounts for physical sensations.  If player A likes to think one way and player B prefers another image...fine...let's move on and talk about something important.  Sometimes, in coaching, you have to let Dumbo (or his dad) keep the feather.

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@iacas, i thought it was clear that dr. lynn was talking about the trail foot. isn't that what he's demonstrating with kevin chappell's swing here?

image.thumb.png.1ff6ba75a3ade80ab99112edfe319323.png

though perhaps it would be better to refer to his published research which clearly mentions the trail foot:

Quote

 

"The TF ML force PC3 demonstrates that the Collegiate golfers create forward momentum through a large positive ML force (directed toward the target) during the early part of the downswing that subsequently needs to be stopped by negative ML force (directed away from the target) before ball contact (Figure 1e)."

TF = trail foot
ML = medial-lateral

source: Lynn, S. K., Noffal, G. J., F.W. Wu, W., & Vandervoort, A. A. (2012). Using Principal Components Analysis to Determine Differences in 3D Loading Patterns Between Beginner and Collegiate Level Golfers. International Journal of Golf Science, 1(1), 25–41. doi:10.1123/ijgs.1.1.25

 

now that we've established "trail foot" is in play feel free to review what i've previously posted with an open mind. and for others following along, i think this is a pretty good overview of the forces involved that originate from the feet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raaEMTKmNUU#t=1m43s

On 6/9/2019 at 10:23 PM, iacas said:

Pretty sure you meant "to the left," and even then, I have two comments

no, i meant right. and obviously i agree with your feedback about using trail/lead instead.

below is more info to support what i was talking about (from the swing catalyst 3d motion plate data guide). remember, we've already established the use of "trail foot" in the published literature as a source of GRF to create forward momentum so it should be clear by now i'm not "twisting" others' words or whatever you said:

Quote

 

"TIMING OF MAXIMUM HORIZONTAL FORCE TOWARD THE RIGHT

Due to the traction that is present between the golfer and the surface, pushing to the right causes movement to the left. The timing of maximum horizontal force toward the right typically marks the beginning of the pressure shift from trail foot to lead foot."

https://support.swingcatalyst.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/208468788/Data_Guide_3D_Motion_Plate_2015_-_email.pdf

 

here's a good video demonstrating this:

Quote

"see how easy it is for me to make a linear pressure trace. i'm pushin' with my right foot, lettin' weight off my left heel..."

i cited dr. lynn's work earlier because swing catalyst is relevant here, but i could also cite research from kevin ball, russell best, and many others who talk about trail foot/leg/whatever GRF in the golf swing. or if you have some way to disprove trail foot/whatever push off with peer-reviewed, published research, i suggest you provide it. 

the videos @billchao and @saevel25 shared don't disprove anything, either. i thought the focus was supposed to be on elite golfers? and similarly the video @phillyk shared with chris como jumping off of a diving board does nothing to prove the absence of trail foot/leg GRF in the golf swing; it's a joke.

Edited by iacas
removed baseball and OT crap

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5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

@iacas, i thought it was clear that dr. lynn was talking about the trail foot. isn't that what he's demonstrating with kevin chappell's swing here?

It's not clear to those who know what they're talking about because Chappell doesn't push off with the trail foot.

You're seeing the results of what the body has done during that phase of the swing being transmitted through the trail foot because it's the only thing touching the ground.

As I previously said, a prosthetic foot attached to an aluminum pole generates similar forces and torques. And in the words of Chris… "just because the total HRT is targetward doesn’t mean you are pushing."

5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

now that we've established "trail foot" is in play

We have not. It's simply the point of contact with the ground… a very simple point you're failing completely to understand. A peg leg transmits similar force.

You've not demonstrated at all that the trail leg or trail foot actively pushes.

5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

now that we've established "trail foot" is in play feel free to review what i've previously posted with an open mind. and for others following along, i think this is a pretty good overview of the forces involved that originate from the feet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raaEMTKmNUU#t=1m43s

That doesn't demonstrate that anything originates through the feet. You're confusing the fact that the feet are the only points in contact with the ground with what they're actively "doing."

5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

below is more info to support what i was talking about (from the swing catalyst 3d motion plate data guide). remember, we've already established the use of "trail foot" in the published literature as a source of GRF to create forward momentum so it should be clear by now i'm not "twisting" others' words or whatever you said:

That has not been established at all. Once again, it's simply the point in contact with the ground.

If I put a pole on the ground and then drive a hammer into the other end of the pole, the force plate will register the points where the pole contacts the force plate as the "source" or "location" of that pressure… despite the fact that the actual force came from the hammer. You're confusing the pole with the hammer.

5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

i cited dr. lynn's work earlier because swing catalyst is relevant here, but i could also cite research from kevin ball, russell best, and many others who talk about trail foot/leg/whatever GRF in the golf swing. or if you have some way to disprove trail foot/whatever push off with peer-reviewed, published research, i suggest you provide it.

I don't have to, because none of the work you've cited proves your claim. You're confusing the pole for the hammer.

Furthermore, the backward-directed shear force generated is very, very small. Why? Because the foot is quickly unweighted. The core drives the center of the body forward (the pelvis), which results in a small reverse push and thus a small force.

You've not proven a darn things, except that you still don't understand how to read a pressure trace or interpret a scientific paper.

5 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

the videos @billchao and @saevel25 shared don't disprove anything, either. i thought the focus was supposed to be on elite golfers? and similarly the video @phillyk shared with chris como jumping off of a diving board does nothing to prove the absence of trail foot/leg GRF in the golf swing; it's a joke.

You said (or posted a presentation that said) players can't make a "golf swing" without GRF. The video demonstrates that you can.

Here's the final challenge for you, or anyone else out there:

  • Stand with your feet as wide apart as they are in a golf swing or a bit wider.
  • Doing nothing with your trail leg at all, slide your hips forward and drag your foot a few inches.

Now, were you on a force plate, you'd see a little force exhibited through the right foot, which @hoselpalooza seems to believe means that the right foot is actively pushing off. It's not - it's just that the force is transmitted through the foot as the sole point of contact with the ground. You could replace your entire trail leg with an aluminum pole and a prosthetic foot and you'd see the same thing.

Furthermore, while you were sliding the foot forward, you'd see a force registered as a shear (horizontal) force pushing back, even though your foot is moving forward. That makes sense, too, and likewise does not mean your foot is actively pushing backward - it's actually pushing forward as it slides, and the friction pushes back.


Throughout this discussion we've laid out several points, and @hoselpalooza simply replies with the same old misunderstandings of videos and PDFs. He's confused the fact that, again, the feet are the only points of contact and that forces are registered as coming "through" them rather than understanding what the trail foot or leg are actually doing. They're not actually contributing to the relatively small forward tilt of the rear GRF "arrow." The fact that an aluminum pole attached at the hip with a prosthetic foot on the end generates a similar trace/pressure reading is proof enough - the trail hip, pulled forward by the core as it lowers and travels forward, creates the GRF as measured at the foot (as the point of contact).


On 6/9/2019 at 10:23 PM, iacas said:

BTW, new rule, as I despise talking about stuff with people who won't even share their identity. Add a signature with your identity - we don't need your SSN or your street address, your cell phone #, nothing like that - so we can address you by your name. And remember, this is golf, so we expect you to be honest. No name, no identity: no more conversation here. Though, to be fair, this conversation is just about over anyway. You've not presented anything to support your claims. You twist the words of people you cite, rely on "feels" of others, and read what you want to read on screens where "foot" or "leg" don't even appear. You don't address the points brought up against you. You're trolling, pure and simple.

BTW, this is still in effect. Man up.

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