Rory "Sick of Courses Being Too Easy"

[turtleback]

15 hours ago, Vinsk said:

These are professionals playing in a professional league, and being paid to compete. Distance is a skill. If they can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. 

It is much harder to hit, e.g., a 25 yard wide fairway with a 320 yard drive than it is to hit a 25 yard wide fairway with a 285 yard drive because of basic geometry.  Which is why the strategy of narrowing of the fairway at the 300 yard mark to make it even more difficult for the long hitter is ridiculous, IMO.  It is ALREADY harder for the 320 guy to hit the 25 yard fairway.  Why not take it to its logical conclusion and make the hole adjustable and then make good putters putt at a smaller hole?  Penalizing good players because of their strengths is the name of the game, right?

This is really not rocket science.  The harder you make it, whether you are talking about course layout, equipment restrictions, rules changes, the more likely the best players will win.  That was the essential point Jack made, in the context of equipment, in his '95 memoir.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, turtleback said:

  Penalizing good players because of their strengths is the name of the game, right?

Lol. Exactly. I think a lot of people completely disregard how difficult it is to hit a good ball +300yds. 

[colin007]

On 10/4/2019 at 3:34 PM, Vinsk said:

Lol. Exactly. I think a lot of people completely disregard how difficult it is to hit a good ball +300yds. 

I thought everybody here hits it that far? Or if they don't, their nephew who played minor league baseball for a week back in 2001 can fly it 310 but can't hit a chip to save his life.

[downbylaw11]

On 10/3/2019 at 6:11 PM, Vinsk said:

These are professionals playing in a professional league, and being paid to compete. Distance is a skill. If they can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. 

hey i dont disagree with that.  I'm just saying the way tournament directors reacted to the way the hitters were getting longer, was the wrong way to adjust. 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, downbylaw11 said:

hey i dont disagree with that.  I'm just saying the way tournament directors reacted to the way the hitters were getting longer, was the wrong way to adjust. 

Yeah I think it’s nonsense really. Golf will always win. Until we have tour players averaging 400yds+ off the tee it will continue to be a grind out there. I do wish we could have more ‘US OPEN’ style set ups to avoid tournaments like the The Shriner’s going on...Na is what -24? Boring.

[Bonvivant]

On 10/3/2019 at 8:25 PM, iacas said:

How exactly would you do that? Because length is still going to be an advantage.

And… if you hit it 280-290, you're hitting like one or two clubs less into greens, not four or five or six.

50 yard wide creeks that run across the fairway at 290-340 on every par 4 and par 5. This is jest, would almost certainly get the job done. If they needed 340 to clear, they are laying up almost certainly. He did mention tighter fairways with more punishing rough, which I actually think would be interesting to see. Something where the fairway starts to tighten at 250-260, and then gets really hard to hit (maybe 15 yards wide) at 300 or so with gnarly rough on the sides, they would at least think twice about booming one.

[SG11118]

On 10/3/2019 at 7:00 PM, iacas said:

That's still not really comparing the average European Tour player to the average PGA Tour player. Your half-a-shot guess is just that: a guess. The European Tour is weaker, and I wouldn't call the margin "small."

I hope you realize your claim of the margin being not "small" seems like just as much of a guess as mine.  Your right that mine is a guess, but is somewhat educated.  If I have time, I'll try to post some backing statistics for my guess in the next week or two because I'd like to get a better feel for it myself to aid in my fantasy golf wagering.

[phan52]

A few years back, I played PGA National the week after the Honda Classic. The course was immaculate and the condition of the fairways in particular may have been the best I ever played. I was standing in the middle of the 18th fairway and I told my caddie that I never had a bad lie in the fairway all day and it was like hitting off of a carpet. The caddie then started into a profane screed about how PGA National is a fast, hard track most of the year, but they soften the conditions up for the Tour. "Those guys are a bunch of f'ing babies and are afraid to play this course under normal conditions." 

[Vinsk]

5 minutes ago, phan52 said:

Those guys are a bunch of f'ing babies and are afraid to play this course under normal conditions." 

Lol....well I seriously doubt that. They may whine about stuff they shouldn’t but I doubt they have any fear of any course out there. Oakmont for the US OPEN is hardly a tame course. 

[iacas]

On 10/7/2019 at 11:53 AM, SG11118 said:

I hope you realize your claim of the margin being not "small" seems like just as much of a guess as mine.  Your right that mine is a guess, but is somewhat educated.  If I have time, I'll try to post some backing statistics for my guess in the next week or two because I'd like to get a better feel for it myself to aid in my fantasy golf wagering.

You're right: I'm guessing at what your definition of "small" is.

My classification is also educated: I've seen several studies and analyses and they've all said that the European Tour is about half a shot worse per round than the PGA Tour. That isn't "small" to me, given that half a shot moves you from 30th on the scoring list in 2019 to 85th. And it's only getting weaker as they continue to reduce the requirements to remain on the European Tour and as the better players continue to migrate to the PGA Tour. Rory played in only a few non-major/-WGC European Tour events, for example, in 2019. Four, I think, with three coming in the last few weeks, and the only other one coming at the Scottish Open as prep for the British Open.

This has also been demonstrated: the OWGR is biased against PGA Tour players and favors European Tour players.

[phan52]

9 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Lol....well I seriously doubt that. They may whine about stuff they shouldn’t but I doubt they have any fear of any course out there. Oakmont for the US OPEN is hardly a tame course. 

The US Open is a completely different thing from the PGA Tour. The Tour has zero control of the conditions on an Open course.

[Vinsk]

5 hours ago, phan52 said:

The US Open is a completely different thing from the PGA Tour. The Tour has zero control of the conditions on an Open course.

That has nothing to do with what you or I are talking about. I’m saying I don’t believe the tour players would have any fear of playing any course. Plenty would break par at that course even if it was set up as your caddie suggested. 

[phan52]

16 hours ago, Vinsk said:

That has nothing to do with what you or I are talking about. I’m saying I don’t believe the tour players would have any fear of playing any course. Plenty would break par at that course even if it was set up as your caddie suggested. 

You are missing the point. I don't know whether the caddie was right or not because I never played the course any other time of year, but his point was that the PGA intention was to make it easier for the Tour players. A hard, fast track is always harder than a plush track.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, phan52 said:

You are missing the point. I don't know whether the caddie was right or not because I never played the course any other time of year, but his point was that the PGA intention was to make it easier for the Tour players. A hard, fast track is always harder than a plush track.

Actually you’re missing the point based on what you quoted. You quoted:

 

23 hours ago, phan52 said:

"Those guys are a bunch of f'ing babies and are afraid to play this course under normal conditions." 

This is referring to the players... not the PGA TOURS attitude about course conditions. If this implies that the PGA sets the course up easy because the players are babies...I disagree.

[RetiredOldMan]

Most professional players still play well regardless of the course. 

My Dad, at 67 years old carried a 1 handicap. He was left handed, could take my right handed irons, turn them over backward, and hit a very decent ball. 

The difference:

He played the course. I played the game. 

BTW, in his later years, Ben Hogan and him were golfing buddies. (Just my 2 cents worth) 

Retired Old Man

[ncates00]

All the talk of golf being too easy, golf balls going too far, whether to go birdie fest or US Open setup, etc. won't go away anytime soon.  One thing that might be interesting to consider is reducing the number of golf clubs a golfer can use. 

Why not go with 9 or 10 clubs instead of 14?  That would force pros to "game" their ball a little more than normal, although I know most pros already take a little off or play a different trajectory or shape to hit different numbers.  Either way, reducing the number of weapons a pro has could toughen up the game and force players to use both power and finesse around the course.

[Cantankerish]

I do not know what is the difficulty in making a course harder than what is currently available.  My guess is that a course that is very hard would not attract enough players beyond the one time each year when it is on the tour.  Is this the crux?

[downbylaw11]

On 10/9/2019 at 11:40 AM, Cantankerish said:

I do not know what is the difficulty in making a course harder than what is currently available.  My guess is that a course that is very hard would not attract enough players beyond the one time each year when it is on the tour.  Is this the crux?

yeah, probably this.  Obviously it's probably not very cost effective to start adding bunkers and creeks everywhere tour players would hit it, but if it was simple as growing out the rough a little and and maybe growing out the fairway at  315 yards, I think they should do more of that.