Embedded Ball Holed?

[fredf]

47 minutes ago, iacas said:

Given five seconds of thought, more than highly unlikely: almost impossible, given that there's going to be a plastic or metal cup liner in there, preventing any part of the ball from being "inside" the circumference of the hole. No?

First, to confirm, I was only referring to Bonvivant's dashing red ball, the original picture issue is very clear cut as previously discussed.

And as I posted, and you clearly agree, the likelihood is about as remote as remote can be. But on your hole liner point - which I agree plays a role in that very low likelihood - I simply note it doesn't prevent the possibility because: 1)  there is no requirement under the rules for a hole to have a liner and 2) if used, the requirement is that it be sunk at least one inch below the level of the green.

So even just for hypothetical discussion, I think Bonvivant's picture poses interesting rules issues. And questions that the Rules do not or cannot unambiguously answer in their current form are very few and far between.

[nevets88]

It looks like it’s touching the flagstick. But doesn’t look like it hit the bottom of the hole. This is from the golf subreddit.

 

[dagolfer18]

That’s a tough one to decide. If I was in this situation during a round (and I know you can’t do this because it’s a pic), I would’ve centered the flagstick if it wasn’t already. If it dropped, it’s considered holed. If not, then I’d play it from there.

[Rulesman]

10 hours ago, nevets88 said:

It looks like it’s touching the flagstick. But doesn’t look like it hit the bottom of the hole. This is from the golf subreddit.

 

It's not the bottom of the hole that's relevant. If it is not touching the flagstick, is the ball at rest and the entire ball below the surface of the green?

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, dagolfer18 said:

That’s a tough one to decide. If I was in this situation during a round (and I know you can’t do this because it’s a pic), I would’ve centered the flagstick if it wasn’t already. If it dropped, it’s considered holed. If not, then I’d play it from there.

Just for information, this rule changed slightly in 2019, and @Rulesman has given you the current information.  You might want to double-check the definition of "holed" in the current rules, which also refer you to Rule 13.2c for situations where the ball is touching the flagstick.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3&subrulenum=3

[iacas]

From the article linked in the first post, again:

Quote

“When dealing with a ball embedded in the side of the hole, we are only concerned with the entire ball being below the surface of the green, even is part of the ball is outside the circumference of the hole,” he wrote in an email. “If the entire ball is below the surface, the ball is holed. If the entire ball is not below the surface, the ball is not holed.”

He added that the “Definition of Holed” section of the rulebook takes precedence. Rule 13.2c, he said, exists for those times the ball is leaning against the flagstick but hasn’t fallen to the bottom of the cup — but isn’t embedded.

[scobo]

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Hi all,,new to these forums,,

So heres my first post,,,guys at club asking if this is holed or not,,(hope you can see picture).

I suggested rule13.2c...

But we're still discussing said shot.

Cheers

[billchao]

45 minutes ago, scobo said:

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Hi all,,new to these forums,,

So heres my first post,,,guys at club asking if this is holed or not,,(hope you can see picture).

I suggested rule13.2c...

But we're still discussing said shot.

Cheers

I moved your post to this thread where we have already discussed the shot in question.

[scobo]

Thanks,,and I can see it caused a lot of discussion too,,,,

[fredf]

17 hours ago, scobo said:

Thanks,,and I can see it caused a lot of discussion too,,,,

The previous discussion covered multiple side issues. The original article also had a nice 4 part summary which is all you need.

1. Embedded, not leaning against the flagstick, not fully submerged: NO ACE

2. Embedded, leaning against the flagstick, not fully submerged: NO ACE

3. Embedded, not leaning against the flagstick, fully submerged: YES ACE

4. Not embedded, leaning against the flagstick, fully or partially submerged: YES ACE

Another quirky photo popped up here: 

Of course, two dimensional photos may not give you everything you need to fit the picture into the four categories above. In this case, while the consensus of commentators is ball is not holed, per the interpretation Holed/1 (category 1 or 2 above), I note that depends on whether that ball is actually embedded in ground outside the line of the cup itself. If it merely damaged the ground on the way to being inside the hole cup then it may not remain embedded in the side of the hole. If that is the case, then the ball would be holed if it is touching the flagstick (category 4 above).

I suggest it is a much clearer/easier call if you are on the spot, rather than viewing a photo.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by fredf

[2bgood-II]

Can't find the ruling right now, but I recall a ruling about a large leaf being over a hole and a ball coming to rest on the leaf that is over the hole. If I recall the ruling stated to mark the ball, move the leaf and replace the ball in the hole and consider it holed. 

I know that this is its own case, but certainly on the spectrum of this discussion. 

[fredf]

4 hours ago, 2bgood-II said:

Can't find the ruling right now, but I recall a ruling about a large leaf being over a hole and a ball coming to rest on the leaf that is over the hole. If I recall the ruling stated to mark the ball, move the leaf and replace the ball in the hole and consider it holed. 

I know that this is its own case, but certainly on the spectrum of this discussion. 

Yes, different situation, and the ruling has changed post Jan 2019. The question was raised again recently - ball overhanging hole but held up from dropping by a stick/leaf or whatever - and has been answered by the R&A and the USGA. This from the USGA facebook page:

United States Golf Association - USGA Michele - when a ball is resting on or against an object overhanging the hole (such as a ball coming to rest against a twig across the hole), the ball is NOT holed unless the Definition of Holed is otherwise met, such as when the ball is also resting against the flagstick with part of the ball below the lip of the hole. Please note, the USGA and R&A jointly write and interpret a single set of Rules that apply to all golfers worldwide and therefore, our answers are the same. Prior to 2019, the answer to this question was addressed with a very specific equity position (that no longer exists). As mentioned above, you may be interested to hear Grant Moir of the R&A discuss this question in this video: 

[TourSpoon]

For the original picture, if that was in my foursome, that player would be buying drinks. Yes, I am easily swayed. 🤣

[Rulesman]

22 hours ago, 2bgood-II said:

Can't find the ruling right now, but I recall a ruling about a large leaf being over a hole and a ball coming to rest on the leaf that is over the hole. If I recall the ruling stated to mark the ball, move the leaf and replace the ball in the hole and consider it holed. 

I know that this is its own case, but certainly on the spectrum of this discussion. 

That originates with a situation at my club some years ago when I asked for a ruling from the R&A. At the time the answer was as you post above.

I asked the same question a few weeks ago in the light of the rule changes and was told the ruling has now changed.

"No the answer would be different under today’s Rules.  The old answer used equity which is no longer part of the Rules.

 Just like the ruling with the twig, the same would apply for the leaf.

 Grant actually covered this question in a recent Q&A that he did.  You can see the Q&A here:

 

The R&A - Rules from the Garden Special

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A special interactive edition of ‘Rules from the Garden: #AskGrant’ will be showcased by The R&A on Friday afternoon.

 The question is at about 12:40 on the above video."