LIV Golf Now Closed?

[GolfSwami]

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Yes. But this has nothing to do with what’s taking place between LIV and PGAT. This is not racial discrimination. 

Besides directly responding to the question in the post, it has everything to do with the issue.... Literally..... Everything.. It is THE argument for LIV. 

Competition is what protects employees and consumers. Competition tends to force better behavior.

 

 

 

[Vinsk]

30 minutes ago, GolfSwami said:

Besides directly responding to the question in the post, it has everything to do with the issue.... Literally..... Everything.. It is THE argument for LIV. 

Competition is what protects employees and consumers. Competition tends to force better behavior.

 

 

 

What are you talking about? Blacks being discriminated against in recruiting was the issue. Racial discrimination has nothing to do with what’s taking place with the LIV players complaints. The NFL suit was all about racial discrimination which did cause an effect with competition but it was the racial discrimination that was at point. 

[GolfSwami]

55 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

What are you talking about? Blacks being discriminated against in recruiting was the issue. Racial discrimination has nothing to do with what’s taking place with the LIV players complaints. The NFL suit was all about racial discrimination which did cause an effect with competition but it was the racial discrimination that was at point. 

Radovich was white.

The AFL signed black players because it made their product better not because of a court decision.

 

[jshots]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You’re not.

These 2 quotes are copy pasted directly from the complaint. I'm not asking you if I am using the exact arguments, I'm telling you that I literally pulled them out of the text. I bolded the things I've been re-iterating over and over again. 

"As the Tour’s monopoly power has grown, it has employed its dominance to craft an arsenal of anticompetitive restraints to protect its long-standing monopoly. "
"Before LIV Golf’s entry, golfers who sold their services in the elite professional golf services market had no meaningful option but to play on the Tour if they wanted to pursue their profession at the highest levels. This provided the Tour with enormous power over the players, including the ability to force players into restrictive terms that foreclose them from playing in competing events and the ability to suppress player compensation below competitive levels"
 

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

I don’t think you can have an ad hominem attack against a profession, by definition. 
 

Against my profession. Text book ad hominem - attacking me personally rather than the argument I am making. Maybe you missed the original comment, but he asked what my profession was as evidence that I know nothing about law or economics. Pretty low blow IMO.

[Vinsk]

4 minutes ago, jshots said:

Before LIV Golf’s entry, golfers who sold their services in the elite professional golf services market had no meaningful option but to play on the Tour if they wanted to pursue their profession at the highest levels

Elite golfers don’t have the right to make millions playing golf. It’s a privilege. How is it the PGAT’s fault that this Tour created by players, provides a means for them to do so yet no one else has? And now LIV comes along to try and do that, and guess what? Nothing stopped them! They have a choice that is meaningful other than the PGAT but now they’re crying that they can’t have both!? WTF can’t you see here that this is ridiculous?

[Aguirre]

11 hours ago, GolfSwami said:

The competition is already having a positive impact on player payouts. 

To the top players. 

The AFL and NLF are leagues. The AFL and ABA succeeded because there were more markets demanding the team sport. 

Almost certainly, the top PGA Tour players are undercompensated by prize money. Yeah, that's pretty much every league, and pretty much every sport. Even in ones without strict salary caps. It's just how these things work. But they don't work as exhibitions. That's the point.

BTW, why is this being bogged down in some sort of legal discussion about anti-trust law and other nonsense? Let our broken-ass legal system work all that out. In the meantime, f*** LIV.

[turtleback]

7 hours ago, jshots said:

I'm spewing legal nonsense? Are you a lawyer? I'm basically using the exact arguments in claims from gigantic law firms representing LIV players, stuff that I'm reading all over the place from actual lawyers. Its not as if I just came up with this shit on my own.

So the ad hominem attack on my profession seems undeserved to me.

"As the Tour’s monopoly power has grown, it has employed its dominance to craft an arsenal of anticompetitive restraints to protect its long-standing monopoly. "
"Before LIV Golf’s entry, golfers who sold their services in the elite professional golf services market had no meaningful option but to play on the Tour if they wanted to pursue their profession at the highest levels. This provided the Tour with enormous power over the players, including the ability to force players into restrictive terms that foreclose them from playing in competing events and the ability to suppress player compensation below competitive levels"

There is nothing in that quote that in any way tries to argue that team sport cases provide any precedent for this situation, which is what I challenged you on.  If you are going to cite precedents they need to be on point.  Simply citing a situation involving a sport and antitrust issue doesn't make that a relevant precedent for a case involving qualitatively different sports (i.e., a team sport with employees and an individual sport with independent contractors) and completely different possible antitrust issues.  Football and antitrust therefore golf and antitrust is not a valid implication.  The devil is in the details and none of the details in these two situations are remotely similar.

And there is no ad hominem on your profession, it is a recognition that your profession has not prepared you to do legal analysis.  And that's fine.  But it puts the validity of your legal arguments into context.

Since you asked, I'm not a lawyer but my professional credentials authorized me to represent clients and practice law on certain specific sections of the tax code, which I did for over 20 years.  So I am at least conversant with legal reasoning and have experience, albeit in a different area, with how legal reasoning works.  So, I'm not a lawyer but I am more knowledgeable than the average bear about the law because of that training and experience.  That doesn't make me right, but it does inform my opinion.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, jshots said:

I'm not asking you if I am using the exact arguments

I was taking about the football stuff. It’s a lousy legal position that has almost nothing to do with what we have here now.

As Rich said, you need to tie more than just “sports” and “antitrust” together.

Also, where is the NFL now? Oh, even more of a monopoly? Cool.

P.S. Again, being a monopoly alone isn’t illegal.

P.P.S. Asking your profession and pointing out a fact is not ad hominem. Drop it.

[The Flush]

 

[Vinsk]

What a great finish to the St. Jude Classic…good to see Zalatoris finally win. And once again…just astronomically more entertaining than the LIV nonsense.

[Friz]

5 hours ago, Vinsk said:

What a great finish to the St. Jude Classic…good to see Zalatoris finally win. And once again…just astronomically more entertaining than the LIV nonsense.

Commentators made a comment afterwards along the lines of "what he is feeling now is worth so much more than any amount of guaranteed money."

Was surprised they even made the LIV reference and kinda wish they just wouldn't even acknowledge it.  But at the same time, they're completely right.  

[GolfLug]

I find the defense of LIV as competition or even healthy competition BS. They are specifically spear fishing players on PGAT with these ridiculous contracts to harness the star power that PGAT created. That is cannibalization. It is hostile. I am not arguing any legality here.

But 'competition makes everything better' crowd need to rethink what LIV is doing. 

Plus, don't the players want more family time? That horseshit disappeared pretty quickly, eh?

[boogielicious]

13 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I find the defense of LIV as competition or even healthy competition BS. They are specifically spear fishing players on PGAT with these ridiculous contracts to harness the star power that PGAT created. That is cannibalization. It is hostile. I am not arguing any legality here.

But 'competition makes everything better' crowd need to rethink what LIV is doing. 

Plus, don't the players want more family time? That horseshit disappeared pretty quickly, eh?

Agree. Greed is a powerful thing though and will cause people to say stupid stuff.

[Bucki1968]

I actually joined a LIV group on Facebook about a week ago and was amazed at all the negative statements that are being made on that site. What is also amazing is how stupid some of the comments are. It almost looked to me like it was a group of people hired to bash the PGA tour. There was literally nothing posted about any of their players or any news from their tour. Just one post after another talking about how bad the leaderboards looked and "who are these guys?" comments. Nothing but hate for the PGA. One post was fake news from some site saying the Cameron Young was the next to join. I actually replied to that one and pointed out his father is PGA of America...never saw another post after that. 🤣

[ChetlovesMer]

27 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

It almost looked to me like it was a group of people hired to bash the PGA tour. 

That's more than a little bit possible. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

I actually joined a LIV group on Facebook about a week ago and was amazed at all the negative statements that are being made on that site. What is also amazing is how stupid some of the comments are. It almost looked to me like it was a group of people hired to bash the PGA tour. There was literally nothing posted about any of their players or any news from their tour. Just one post after another talking about how bad the leaderboards looked and "who are these guys?" comments. Nothing but hate for the PGA. One post was fake news from some site saying the Cameron Young was the next to join. I actually replied to that one and pointed out his father is PGA of America...never saw another post after that. 🤣

It wouldn't surprise me if many of them are bots, too.

Much of the Twitter stuff is likely Saudi-paid bots.

[turtleback]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

It wouldn't surprise me if many of them are bots, too.

Much of the Twitter stuff is likely Saudi-paid bots.

I wonder about some of the folks posting here, with low message counts.  And posting almost exclusively about LIV, with silly arguments in their favor.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

I wonder about some of the folks posting here, with low message counts.  And posting almost exclusively about LIV, with silly arguments in their favor.

Well for them to make comments such as ‘who are these guys?’ regarding the FEC leaderboards ( St. Jude most recently) is just embarrassingly stupid. Have they seen their leaderboards? Not to mention 14 of the 15 OWGR are on the PGAT. Just asinine.