A Common Fitting Mistake

[DrvFrShow]

I'll say most "fittings" come in quotes. They're static measurements and do you like the way the club feels. Sorry we don't have the shaft in the length you use. Sorry, we don't have the club data set up so we can't see where you're hitting it on the club face. So we'll have to take a guess at it. But you're hitting that 7 iron 185 yds.,(never mind that it's only spinning at 4500 rpm and won't hold a green). 

If you want anything fit properly you'll have to go to Club Champion and get a real fitting for $150. They use Trackman for fitting. I've heard good things about them from people who have used them. Next time I'll go there.

 

[dennyjones]

13 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

I'll say most "fittings" come in quotes. They're static measurements and do you like the way the club feels. Sorry we don't have the shaft in the length you use. Sorry, we don't have the club data set up so we can't see where you're hitting it on the club face. So we'll have to take a guess at it. But you're hitting that 7 iron 185 yds.,(never mind that it's only spinning at 4500 rpm and won't hold a green). 

If you want anything fit properly you'll have to go to Club Champion and get a real fitting for $150. They use Trackman for fitting. I've heard good things about them from people who have used them. Next time I'll go there.

 

There are Golftec's in Washington.    They may be worth checking out too. 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

I'll say most "fittings" come in quotes. They're static measurements and do you like the way the club feels. Sorry we don't have the shaft in the length you use. Sorry, we don't have the club data set up so we can't see where you're hitting it on the club face. So we'll have to take a guess at it. But you're hitting that 7 iron 185 yds.,(never mind that it's only spinning at 4500 rpm and won't hold a green). 

If you want anything fit properly you'll have to go to Club Champion and get a real fitting for $150. They use Trackman for fitting. I've heard good things about them from people who have used them. Next time I'll go there.

 

I’ve never had a fitting done that poorly. No data or lie board? No sharpie on the ball? Most places don’t have shafts already at the resulted length, they cut them or make them longer. CC is very thorough but the downside is they’ll fit you into high-end shafts that are quite expensive. I don’t think ‘most’ fittings are as poor as you described.

[billchao]

8 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

But you're hitting that 7 iron 185 yds.,(never mind that it's only spinning at 4500 rpm and won't hold a green). 

Spin is another number too many people get fixated on. Rick Shiels has done a number of reviews where he gets lower spin than he thinks he needs on his LM and then goes out on the course and is surprised the ball stops or even sucks back on the green.

If you hit the ball high enough with good descent angle, it will hold a green.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Spin is another number too many people get fixated on. Rick Shiels has done a number of reviews where he gets lower spin than he thinks he needs on his LM and then goes out on the course and is surprised the ball stops or even sucks back on the green.

If you hit the ball high enough with good descent angle, it will hold a green.

Agree. A 7i still looks like a seven iron to me. If I can hit it 185yds and high I’m gonna be well off, which is how they are designing these clubs now. Anytime I can pull a mid or short iron over a long iron I’m in.

[ncates00]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Spin is another number too many people get fixated on. Rick Shiels has done a number of reviews where he gets lower spin than he thinks he needs on his LM and then goes out on the course and is surprised the ball stops or even sucks back on the green.

If you hit the ball high enough with good descent angle, it will hold a green.

True but at some point you're going to run into gapping issues.  If your 7i is only spinning at 4500 rpm, there's only so much lower you can go as you get into the longer irons.  The length of shaft and lower loft will help get a bit more speed, but that doesn't necessarily fix the gapping issue.  4500 is where my 5i or my 4h sit.  I couldn't imagine only getting that much with my 7i unless I'm coming out of the rough or I hit the ball REALLY high on the face.  To that point, having lower spin with your irons has to be tough coming out of the rough.  Further, I imagine with the longer clubs you've got to be striking them really well or you may have some that fall out of the air due to lack of spin to keep the ball airborne. 

Too little of spin is just as bad as too much spin in many cases.  For instance, I keep my driver hovering around that 2k rpm spin range because if I drop below that number I'll get my longest carries, but I'm one toe-hook away from flying the ball like 200 yards straight left and OB.  The same may be true of these "distance irons."  The golf course is designed to take spin away from you with rough, high grass, etc.  Why would you want low spin on your irons?

The combination of variable shaft length (assuming no one length shenanigans), variable lofts, and appropriate spin models get you proper gapping and descent angle.  I like to keep to that traditional rule of somewhere around 1k per number on the club give or take, e.g., my 7i sits between 6k-7k spin, 5i sits 4k-5k spin,  etc.  It certainly doesn't maximize my distance potential, but it helps me predict my flights and not deal with the knuckle ball issue out of the rough.  Distance control, I think, is better achieved and is more predictable too.

[billchao]

32 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

True but at some point you're going to run into gapping issues.  If your 7i is only spinning at 4500 rpm, there's only so much lower you can go as you get into the longer irons.  The length of shaft and lower loft will help get a bit more speed, but that doesn't necessarily fix the gapping issue.  4500 is where my 5i or my 4h sit.  I couldn't imagine only getting that much with my 7i unless I'm coming out of the rough or I hit the ball REALLY high on the face.  To that point, having lower spin with your irons has to be tough coming out of the rough.  Further, I imagine with the longer clubs you've got to be striking them really well or you may have some that fall out of the air due to lack of spin to keep the ball airborne. 

Too little of spin is just as bad as too much spin in many cases.  For instance, I keep my driver hovering around that 2k rpm spin range because if I drop below that number I'll get my longest carries, but I'm one toe-hook away from flying the ball like 200 yards straight left and OB.  The same may be true of these "distance irons."  The golf course is designed to take spin away from you with rough, high grass, etc.  Why would you want low spin on your irons?

The combination of variable shaft length (assuming no one length shenanigans), variable lofts, and appropriate spin models get you proper gapping and descent angle.  I like to keep to that traditional rule of somewhere around 1k per number on the club give or take, e.g., my 7i sits between 6k-7k spin, 5i sits 4k-5k spin,  etc.  It certainly doesn't maximize my distance potential, but it helps me predict my flights and not deal with the knuckle ball issue out of the rough.  Distance control, I think, is better achieved and is more predictable too.

Like everything else, optimal spin rate depends on other factors. A ball launching at 25° with 7k spin is different than one launching at 20°. You can’t isolate spin and determine whether that club is good for them or not, which is my point.

Some people generate more spin than others.

[DennisMiller]

Honestly, no offense intended to anyone here, but why do spin numbers really matter? I'm interested in an end result, not the biproduct stats of hitting balls.

I know we are inundated with numbers in golf these days, measurements we hear about on the tours and in the computerized booths, but really?

If I want to choose a new driver and I hit one longer and straighter, those end numbers are more important, because they, and only they, express what I'm hoping to accomplish.

Sure, the fitter might have messed with the settings on the driver in ways that positively affected the spin, but why should I be concerned as long as the result is what I'm looking for?

[GolfLug]

I think modern fittings are great. I had a True Spec fitting done last year but came away knowing I didn't need new irons. I stayed with my 6 year old traditional loft (6i - 30 degs) irons. Couple of 'players distance irons' versions (2 degs stronger) gave me nothing in terms of dispersion which was my main personal goal for improvement. 

I agree 100 percent that the ONE thing to ignore is the iron number on the sole. 

Off topic alert:

Don't get turned off by 'loft manipulation' of GI and SGI irons. In addition to distance, thinner/hotter faces with weight distribution are designed to help you get more lift and spin as well for a better flight and landing characteristics. Usually good things for lower speed swingers. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by GolfLug

[ncates00]

26 minutes ago, DennisMiller said:

but why do spin numbers really matter? I'm interested in an end result, not the biproduct stats of hitting balls.

Because it affects the end result...

[DennisMiller]

4 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Because it affects the end result...

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT!!!  Why should we confuse ourselves with esoterica? Let the fitter prove his or her worth by messing with what might affect spin numbers in a positive way. Look for results and focus on nothing else.

[ncates00]

1 minute ago, DennisMiller said:

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT!!!  Why should we confuse ourselves with esoterica? Let the fitter prove his or her worth by messing with what might affect spin numbers in a positive way. Look for results and focus on nothing else.

What's confusing about spin?  As an owner of a launch monitor, I geek out over this stuff.  Why?  Because I like it.  I enjoy it.  If you want to just go get fitted and trust the fitter, fine.  I like to be able to have an intelligent conversation and understand the why and not just the what.  I do, however, delegate some things of my life to others' expertise--like cutting my hair--I just want my hair cut.  I don't have to know what goes into that.  But some things, I do like and enjoy talking about the minutia of the details.

Having knowledge about a topic and being concerned with the end result are not mutually exclusive.  That's faulty logic.  For instance, some people like to jump in a car and drive.  Other people like to learn how to rebuild a carburetor (on old cars obviously), engine, transmission, and geek out over the details.  Such people, under your faulty reasoning, are just "confusing" themselves with esoterica. 

[DennisMiller]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, based on nothing more than it's interesting to you, but not to me. You have every right do be interested in the details for cause and effect, but in the end, we both know our equipment choices will be based on the end result.

[snapfade]

52 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

What's confusing about spin?  As an owner of a launch monitor, I geek out over this stuff.  Why?  Because I like it.  I enjoy it.  If you want to just go get fitted and trust the fitter, fine.  I like to be able to have an intelligent conversation and understand the why and not just the what.  I do, however, delegate some things of my life to others' expertise--like cutting my hair--I just want my hair cut.  I don't have to know what goes into that.  But some things, I do like and enjoy talking about the minutia of the details.

Having knowledge about a topic and being concerned with the end result are not mutually exclusive.  That's faulty logic.  For instance, some people like to jump in a car and drive.  Other people like to learn how to rebuild a carburetor (on old cars obviously), engine, transmission, and geek out over the details.  Such people, under your faulty reasoning, are just "confusing" themselves with esoterica. 

That kind of sums up why I responded to this post to begin with. It is a part of the game where I never cared too much about, but now it seems very important and I want to understand what all of it means. Im just educating myself in an area I knew little about. No matter what a fitter tells me and shows me, I know my decision is going to be based on the end result, are these clubs longer, straighter, more forgiving, etc than what I have now. But, I want to fully understand how we get to that point. I agree with @DennisMiller too in that its the end result sure, but for me its a learning experience, and the more knowledge I have going into a fitting the better off I'll be, because I will know if the guy is blowing smoke up my leg. Its like if your car is broke and you take it to the garage. Do you just take the word of the mechanic? Hopefully, you have educated yourself on the problem and you know the questions to ask and so forth. That way you don't get taken advantage of. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, DennisMiller said:

Honestly, no offense intended to anyone here, but why do spin numbers really matter?

To you, they don’t. To the fitter trying to build you the best clubs for your game, they absolutely do.

1 hour ago, DennisMiller said:

I'm interested in an end result, not the biproduct stats of hitting balls.

The numbers help guide the fitter to the best end result. Hit the ball too high with too much spin? They can use that information to make an adjustment. Too low with too much spin? Again, the information helps the fitting process.

38 minutes ago, DennisMiller said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree, based on nothing more than it's interesting to you, but not to me.

Your lack of interest in the numbers doesn’t invalidate their utility. There are plenty of people out there who are fully capable of not only understanding the numbers, but also using them to improve their golf game.

[DrvFrShow]

10 hours ago, billchao said:

Spin is another number too many people get fixated on. Rick Shiels has done a number of reviews where he gets lower spin than he thinks he needs on his LM and then goes out on the course and is surprised the ball stops or even sucks back on the green.

If you hit the ball high enough with good descent angle, it will hold a green.

Yes, that's the mat effect with the spin. I've had that where I haven't swung the club any harder, but it looks like I absolutely crushed it - it was a low spin shot that went about 10 yds further than it should have. I would toss it during a club eval and not even think of it as "potential." I've had similar experience to Rick on the course where I was hitting a wedge in the shop at X spin and then had it stop dead on the green because I struck the ball right and took a beaver tail of a divot after striking the ball. You can't take a divot on a mat.

I like Trackman. During a fitting, the fitter and set an optimal launch and descent window for say... the 7 iron or 6 iron (if you're fitting for Mizuno). They fit the club so that your ball flight falls within that and you're getting your optimal smash factor, too. Then pick the club head and shaft combo that performed the best. Once that's consistent, you've got your iron set. My job is to hit the ball and be as consistent as I can. The fitter's job is to work the magic. 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, DennisMiller said:

Honestly, no offense intended to anyone here, but why do spin numbers really matter? I'm interested in an end result, not the biproduct stats of hitting balls.

Because it directly speaks to how the club will perform.

[ncates00]

8 hours ago, DennisMiller said:

based on nothing more than it's interesting to you

I never argued to the contrary.  Knowledge is a good thing, ya know?

 

8 hours ago, DennisMiller said:

but in the end, we both know our equipment choices will be based on the end result.

Again, I never argued to the contrary.  But as others have already pointed out (myself included), metrics like spin affect the end result.

 

8 hours ago, DennisMiller said:

but not to me.

Right, you do you.  But your lack of interest in the topic doesn't make it any less valuable.  After all, wouldn't you expect your fitter to know a thing or two about it?  As I have already stated, I own a launch monitor and I like knowing a thing or two about things I enjoy doing.  We get it--you're a jump in the car and drive kind of a guy.  Some of us like to do more than that.