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Bryson Wins. Is That Bad?

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1 hour ago, klineka said:

The only reason Zach Johnson finished anywhere decent this week was because he putted his ass off (Which has quite a bit to do with luck and isn't sustainable on a week to week basis). He gained 9.6 strokes putting over the 4 rounds, which is almost half as many total strokes as he gained in 54 measured rounds last year (19.9 total strokes gained putting)

He lost over a stroke total off the tee to the field, and lost over 6 strokes to Bryson off the tee. 

Johnson also only gained .5 strokes approach to the field over 4 rounds compared to Bryson who gained 7.5 over the 4 rounds.

Think about that for a second, Zach Johnson had what was most likely one of the best putting tournaments of his life, was better than the field average in approaching the green, and STILL lost by 12 shots...

Some weeks on some courses, sure. But not as a whole across all golfers on all courses over the entire season. The data simply just doesn't support your claim.

This was posted on the Superspeedgolf instagram page back in June

image.png

 

That’s 2007-2018....Doesn’t that just show that ball speed in general has increased as well as purse size and thus the more money won correlates to that?

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10 minutes ago, iacas said:

There is a decreasing amount of room, and there's not much left. I disagree with you; for almost all normal definitions of "plenty," there isn't "plenty" of room for short hitters.

"Below average" in 10 years might be someone who hits it 305. There's always going to be people "below average." Probably around 50% of the players will be "below average."

Funny you want to argue that others are talking about semantics, and then you use a word like "average."

How about "short" hitters? That's easier to agree to a definition, probably, and no, I don't think "short" hitters will do all that well in the coming years. They have less room each and every year.

"Others"?  I was responding to one person who was arguing semantics.  Word like average?  I fail to see how the word average could be open to subjectivity when in the context of statistics.  So how is that in conflict to me pointing out someone arguing semantics?  Plenty is subjective when considered in the context of how much room one considers sufficient or plentiful, you know, as in plenty of room. 

My point in this whole conversation is that I believe there will always be players who perform below average in terms of distance who could still find a way to have long decent careers similar to ZJ.  The exact distance that represents average is irrelevant to that point. 

You should have noticed that I put shorter in quotations to represent it's relativity to the tour level players. 

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24 minutes ago, campbellj21 said:

"Others"?  I was responding to one person who was arguing semantics.

The irony here… c'mon man.

24 minutes ago, campbellj21 said:

Word like average? I fail to see how the word average could be open to subjectivity when in the context of statistics.

Because even if people start hitting the ball 330-370, half of the people are going to be "below average length."

24 minutes ago, campbellj21 said:

Plenty is subjective when considered in the context of how much room one considers sufficient or plentiful, you know, as in plenty of room.

Yes, and so what I said above about the word "plenty" still holds: for almost all normal definitions, people will not agree that there's "plenty" of room for the short hitters in today's game. They're going to keep being replaced by guys who hit it farther.

There's very little room in the modern PGA Tour game for a short hitter.

24 minutes ago, campbellj21 said:

My point in this whole conversation is that I believe there will always be players who perform below average in terms of distance…

:sigh:

24 minutes ago, campbellj21 said:

The exact distance that represents average is irrelevant to that point.

It's not.

The bottom five guys here are Andrew Putnam, Jim Furyk, Zac Blair, Brian Stuard, and Vaughn Taylor (at 281.6 yards). In scoring average, those five ranked (out of 193 guys)… an average of 121st.

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3 hours ago, turtleback said:

How quickly people forget - golf is not a game of how, it is a game of how many.  The scorecard doesn't lie.

There are a lot of golfers - some professional's at least based on their comments i.e. Rory - maybe a little; Player; Nicklaus and others; plus many posters on other Golf Discussion groups seem to think that the modern golfer has forsaken "other" ball striking skills. Bryson demonstrated at this particular tournament that he has all the "skills" necessary to play the game at an elite level. 41% Fairways hit (field avg 39%); 64% greens in regulation (field avg 51%); strokes gained off the tee +5.38; strokes gained approach +6.98; Total strokes gained approach +6.98.  

His short game performance was also very good: Strokes gained putting +4.59; strokes gained short game +5.42.

Will he dominate on tour - probably not - there are too many other players at any given tournament could put up those numbers and win.

What is amusing to me is the random speculations about what to do with golf courses to throttle back what we see every Tour stop - thicker rough; narrower fairways (done that!); random pot bunkers scattered out in the fairway to put a premium on accuracy; more trees; less trees yada yada yada!

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14 minutes ago, iacas said:

The irony here… c'mon man.

Because even if people start hitting the ball 330-370, half of the people are going to be "below average length."

Yes, and so what I said above about the word "plenty" still holds: for almost all normal definitions, people will not agree that there's "plenty" of room for the short hitters in today's game. They're going to keep being replaced by guys who hit it farther.

There's very little room in the modern PGA Tour game for a short hitter.

:sigh:

It's not.

The bottom five guys here are Andrew Putnam, Jim Furyk, Zac Blair, Brian Stuard, and Vaughn Taylor (at 281.6 yards). In scoring average, those five ranked (out of 193 guys)… an average of 121st.

  45 minutes ago, campbellj21 said:

My point in this whole conversation is that I believe there will always be players who perform below average in terms of distance…

:sigh

 

Is your reading comprehension really that bad?  Why did you cut off the rest of my point?  Did you really think I was saying I believe there will always be players who perform below average in distance and that's it?  I'm saying that of those people who fall below average (whether average is 300, 320, 340 or whatever it rises to), some will still go on to have long decent careers similar to ZJ.  The fact that an average exists means there must be people below it, unless everyone was hitting the ball exactly the same distance as everyone else...did you really think that was the point I was making?  That I don't know what an average is?  

 

Seriously, reading comprehension, work on it.  Also, check your definition of irony, me pointing out that you used the term others when I was talking to one person is not arguing semantics...which would not create the irony. 

I guess this argument is pretty futile considering your reading comprehension skills though...so deuces! 

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6 minutes ago, campbellj21 said:

I guess this argument is pretty futile considering your reading comprehension skills though...so deuces! 

Wow, someone contradicts what you post and you immediately go to attacking someones reading aptitude. Grow a thicker skin. If not, then just don't engage in topics were you will receive criticism or rebuttal.

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54 minutes ago, MiuraMan said:

There are a lot of golfers - some professional's at least based on their comments i.e. Rory - maybe a little; Player; Nicklaus and others; plus many posters on other Golf Discussion groups seem to think that the modern golfer has forsaken "other" ball striking skills. Bryson demonstrated at this particular tournament that he has all the "skills" necessary to play the game at an elite level. 41% Fairways hit (field avg 39%); 64% greens in regulation (field avg 51%); strokes gained off the tee +5.38; strokes gained approach +6.98; Total strokes gained approach +6.98.  

His short game performance was also very good: Strokes gained putting +4.59; strokes gained short game +5.42.

Will he dominate on tour - probably not - there are too many other players at any given tournament could put up those numbers and win.

What is amusing to me is the random speculations about what to do with golf courses to throttle back what we see every Tour stop - thicker rough; narrower fairways (done that!); random pot bunkers scattered out in the fairway to put a premium on accuracy; more trees; less trees yada yada yada!

Thank you for this post.  BD put it all together this week. It was amazing to see.  I don’t know if his methods are generalizable as he is working on an algorithm tailored to his bio-mechanics, temperement and talent.  The scene of him and his team working on his swing saturday night was instructive of the ambition and perserverance he has.  

I too am sick of the mad scientist chatter.  Its boring at this point.

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2 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Who said anything about skying the ball?  I said he hits it high.  There's a difference.

Of course there's a difference. One is the deliberate ball flight of an expert golfer, and the other is an occasional mishit by a mid-to-high handicap amateur golfer.

I had a friend who used to periodically ruminate on the re-emergence of his hacker's slice off the tee with a rueful, "Ah, the Nicklaus power-fade. Finally, there it is."

 

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3 minutes ago, ScouseJohnny said:

I had a friend who used to periodically ruminate on the re-emergence of his hacker's slice off the tee with a rueful, "Ah, the Nicklaus power-fade. Finally, there it is."

 

Now that is the definition of lipstick on a pig...

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1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Wow, someone contradicts what you post and you immediately go to attacking someones reading aptitude. Grow a thicker skin. If not, then just don't engage in topics were you will receive criticism or rebuttal.

When someone lacks credible or valid substance to their arguments, they start to deflect...it’s what people do when they’re losing. Don’t worry, despite his “deuces,” I’m sure he’ll be back. 

Edited by woodzie264

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3 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Now that is the definition of lipstick on a pig...

Ha! I was always tempted to buy him a copy of the classic Golf My Way, resplendent with artwork depicting Jack in his plaid-clad '70s pomp, hitting fades (deliberately, and fades as opposed to slices, lest there be confusion on that score).

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10 minutes ago, ScouseJohnny said:

Ha! I was always tempted to buy him a copy of the classic Golf My Way, resplendent with artwork depicting Jack in his plaid-clad '70s pomp, hitting fades (deliberately, and fades as opposed to slices, lest there be confusion on that score).

Sounds like your friend has a good attitude but he's likely never broken 90.  Guessing he's a lot of fun at the 19th hole.

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12 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

I thought it was pretty interesting listening to Rory's comments on the Golf Channel. He kinda threw some jabs at Bryson and the way the game is changing. 

Interesting perspective......I took Rory's comments a bit different and think he was really paying a compliment to BAD......saying that he has found a way to gain an advantage in spots over the rest of field and is doing so within the confines of the current rules and regulations......a la Bill Bellichik if you will

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51 minutes ago, BallStriker said:

Interesting perspective......I took Rory's comments a bit different and think he was really paying a compliment to BAD......saying that he has found a way to gain an advantage in spots over the rest of field and is doing so within the confines of the current rules and regulations......a la Bill Bellichik if you will

1 - I agree - Rory is classy and it sounded more like Rory is wondering about it.  Not belittling it.  Rory also has gone the long hitter/fitness route and has made a #1 in the world type of career out of it.

2 - BCD has done a great job and is doing some cool things that make a lot of sense.  So what?

3 - Most of the crap is the horrible reporting.  the media plays it up and also plays it out in left field.  They are so desparate for things to talk about and they are happy to poke at him for the sake of ratings.  I find the constant 'scientist' and "protein shakes" comments absolutely tedious.  And that includes the nervous little giggles from Sir Nick every time he cracks one those lame jokes along those lines.  Get new material guys, maybe talk about golf.

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Back in the day..."What was he thinking?" was a rhetorical question.  And no one wondered if Doug Sanders' shirt was a manifestation of his diet.  We have come a long way.  Whether we've gotten anywhere is debatable.

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14 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Disagree.  My favorite part of televised golf is watching the players line up their putts from both sides, re-read their little books, mark and remark and unmark their ball.  Oh, I also like watching a guy go to his bag to pull out a bottle of water.

This was also a disappointing. In the last hour, they showed Wolff and BD hitting all their shots and everyone else just putting. There were several times where Xander, Harris or Louis were putting for par or bogey and we didn’t get to see how they got there.

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I wonder how recent changes with the Golf Channel and the quick transfer from Fox to NBC and COVID affected the broadcast. Imho, there were a ton of shots that I'm like, why didn't they show that? I can't tell if this broadcast was worse or not. Have to check that guy that does the shots shown per hour count website.

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