Angel Cabrera to Serve 2 Year Sentence for Assault

[ncates00]

10 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Hypothetically, if a murderer or rapist served their sentence and then wanted to play do you think that that attitude would be reasonable? Those crimes have nothing to do with golf. We're talking about assaulting women, not ignoring parking fines.

The "he's served his time" argument only holds up for misdemeanours, not criminal - especially violent - behaviour.

Would you employ an ex thug to mind your business? Would you say, "Yeah, he assaulted people but my business has nothing to do with that"?

I get your point, but you're failing to see mine. So what do we do with all these people, like Cabrera, then? Just throw them in jail and let them rot away at our dollar? And when they come out, we just ostracize them from any further contribution to society? How will they get a job? How will they provide for themselves? Look, I know Cabrera will likely have no problem providing for himself, but you get my point (I hope). What happened to redemption, or is there such a thing? Again, shouldn't the legal punishment be enough, or does the whole "do the crime, do the time" include time after you're imprisoned as well? If that's the case, then I don't see much purpose for any convicted felons then. They're just going to be more beneficiaries of our tax dollars; again, doubtful that Cabrera will, but you get my point.

Look, I'm not saying we should throw a parade for Cabrera or even forget what he has done. I jsut think if we truly believe people can change and that we have a criminal justice system, as broke as it may be, for the purposes of punishing and rehabilitating folks, then when they serve their time, that perhaps that may be enough for the rest of us. But I also appreciate the interests of employers and others seeking applicants too--as I said above (maybe you didn't read it), @Shorty, it's a tough balancing act.

[Vinsk]

12 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Hypothetically, if a murderer or rapist served their sentence and then wanted to play do you think that that attitude would be reasonable? Those crimes have nothing to do with golf. We're talking about assaulting women, not ignoring parking fines.

The "he's served his time" argument only holds up for misdemeanours, not criminal - especially violent - behaviour.

Would you employ an ex thug to mind your business? Would you say, "Yeah, he assaulted people but my business has nothing to do with that"?

Yeah true. But I think @ncates00 is making the point that playing golf isn’t something that could perpetuate his behavior. Like allowing a child molester to coach little league or run Boy Scouts would obviously not be permitted. IMO I wouldn’t let him play based on the nature despite the non-relationship of it to golf. 

[ncates00]

And before any of you accuse me of being too naive or have too big of a heart, I'm a tough "rules" guy. 🙂

[BHI 99]

Too bad the law(yers) in the US allow idiots like him to get away with it. 

[Shorty]

27 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

 

Look, I'm not saying we should throw a parade for Cabrera or even forget what he has done. I jsut think if we truly believe people can change and that we have a criminal justice system, as broke as it may be, for the purposes of punishing and rehabilitating folks, then when they serve their time, that perhaps that may be enough for the rest of us. But I also appreciate the interests of employers and others seeking applicants too--as I said above (maybe you didn't read it), @Shorty, it's a tough balancing act.

I agree, but there are some crimes that are so abhorrent that they fall outside of that.

If a child murderer is jailed for his crime and is then released, he is not welcomed into society by the majority. And obviously, this is an extreme example.

For many other crimes they are welcomed back, and deserve to be.

Men who assault women are, by definition, awful people and can expect to be shunned by organisations like The Masters, no matter how hypocritical that may seem, given their history

Edited July 8, 2021 by Shorty

[ncates00]

15 minutes ago, BHI 99 said:

law

No it doesn't. If you commit a crime, and the prosecutor can prove every element of the offense, offers no plea bargain, and, if a jury trial, the jury finds the defendant guilty, that convicted person is not allowed "to get away with it."

 

15 minutes ago, BHI 99 said:

law(yers)

The burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt every element of the offense charged. The defense's job is to...defend. So how does the defendant "get away with it" exactly?

 

You should know what you're talking about before you say ridiculous things like this.

Edited July 8, 2021 by ncates00

[billchao]

32 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I get your point, but you're failing to see mine. So what do we do with all these people, like Cabrera, then? Just throw them in jail and let them rot away at our dollar? And when they come out, we just ostracize them from any further contribution to society? How will they get a job? How will they provide for themselves? Look, I know Cabrera will likely have no problem providing for himself, but you get my point (I hope). What happened to redemption, or is there such a thing? Again, shouldn't the legal punishment be enough, or does the whole "do the crime, do the time" include time after you're imprisoned as well? If that's the case, then I don't see much purpose for any convicted felons then. They're just going to be more beneficiaries of our tax dollars; again, doubtful that Cabrera will, but you get my point.

Look, I'm not saying we should throw a parade for Cabrera or even forget what he has done. I jsut think if we truly believe people can change and that we have a criminal justice system, as broke as it may be, for the purposes of punishing and rehabilitating folks, then when they serve their time, that perhaps that may be enough for the rest of us. But I also appreciate the interests of employers and others seeking applicants too--as I said above (maybe you didn't read it), @Shorty, it's a tough balancing act.

Ex-cons being able to get jobs and Angel Cabrera being allowed to play in the Masters Tournament isn’t the same thing.

He will have ample opportunity to redeem himself regardless of whether he retains the privilege to play in one of the most prestigious golf tournaments in the world.

[BHI 99]

41 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

No it doesn't. If you commit a crime, and the prosecutor can prove every element of the offense, offers no plea bargain, and, if a jury trial, the jury finds the defendant guilty, that convicted person is not allowed "to get away with it."

 

The burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt every element of the offense charged. The defense's job is to...defend. So how does the defendant "get away with it" exactly?

 

You should know what you're talking about before you say ridiculous things like this.

Ok. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/nfl/2014/09/11/nfl-players-arrested-domestic-violence-assault

[ncates00]

1 minute ago, BHI 99 said:

Ok. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/nfl/2014/09/11/nfl-players-arrested-domestic-violence-assault

Go take some classes on criminal law and criminal procedure at your local community college and learn how these things work. More to it than you think. These things are very fact-intensive. 

[BHI 99]

Community College sounds about right for a law degree. 

 

Bruises don’t lie. 

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, BHI 99 said:

Community College sounds about right for a law degree. 

 

Bruises don’t lie. 

Your posts are off topic and you do not know what you are talking about with regards to law. Back on topic.

[colin007]

On 7/8/2021 at 3:53 PM, boogielicious said:

 The argument of the beard comes to mind. Where is the line drawn?

What's the beard thing?

[boogielicious]

Just now, colin007 said:

What's the beard thing?

The argument of the beard is a logic fallacy. Basically, where do you draw the line for a ‘beard’ to start. In this case, how bad does a crime have to be to bar Cabrera from the Masters.

Argument of the Beard

---

When one argues that no useful distinction can be made between two extremes, just because...

 

[Missouri Swede]

4 minutes ago, colin007 said:

What's the beard thing?

Argument of the Beard

---

When one argues that no useful distinction can be made between two extremes, just because there is no definable moment or point on the spectrum where the two extremes meet. The name...

 

Jinx!

[Keep It Simple]

If Cabrera is allowed to play The Masters after he serves his time, I am not sure he would want to.  He might find it embarrassing to be in the public eye.   Surely he would experience some booing and other expressions of disapproval while he plays.

[DaveP043]

I think a reasonable way to rephrase the question is this.  Should the Masters revise its invitation policy to disallow players convicted of a crime?  If so, does that ban ever expire?  Which crimes would be grounds for the ban?  Or could this simply be a one-off, and hope the situation doesn't come up again.

There's no question in my mind that the Masters can do whatever chooses, and I don't think that banning Cabrera would cause any kind of adverse PR for it.  But how SHOULD they handle it?

[Shorty]

I would be very surprised if Cabrera ever shows his face there again. He isn't going to want to be a sideshow and certainly wouldn't be wanting any publicity.

[ncates00]

11 minutes ago, Shorty said:

I would be very surprised if Cabrera ever shows his face there again. He isn't going to want to be a sideshow and certainly wouldn't be wanting any publicity.

The same could be said for any event in which he plays.