How do You Play This Hole (#14 at Lake Padden GC)

[phillyk]

This hole bugs me in winter.  It’s not long, only plays 304yds from the white tees.  But, the green is funky.

If we are playing this hole in summer, how to play it, for me, is a no brainer.  In winter, the fairways are wet, plugging/close to and it’s 40 degrees out so not getting a lot of carry out of the driver.  The greens though are always rolling smooth and usually between 9 and 10.5 on the stimp. They also retain their firmness much better than you’d think.

Off the tee, the fairway goes slightly uphill to the bunker, then downhill towards the green.  Just before the green, it goes back up very slightly for the false front.  To carry the bunker is 220yds. The fairway is 35yds wide for most of the hole. From one tree line to the other is 70yds wide, trees are not a penalty area, it would be played as a lost ball.  From the tee to the front edge of the green is 285yds.

Let’s say the red dot is the hole location.  We have a false front, so if you hit that it may just stay put.  Hitting the fairway short will very likely not roll up onto the green. You have about a 15ft table top surface, then it drops off towards the back half on the green. A ball could very well roll 30ft-40ft down and away. The green is a total 100ft long. 

The Situation: it’s winter, good greens, front hole location, what do you do?  More specifically, how do you play the approach shot? Go for the GIR and risk getting a long putt back up the slope or try to leave it on the front edge, but risking not making it all the way to the green.

 

Myself, I average 275yds with the driver in winter.  I almost always hit driver. The fairway bunker isn’t an issue.  The right trees do present a visual issue as I draw the ball (the hole is technically a slight dog leg right because of the trees).  My ball flight typically gets above those trees but it could also get stuck in them if hit poorly. My expectation on this hole is always wanting an easy look at birdie.  But, I rarely get it.  Driver leaves me a funky, wet, soft pitch from 5-20yds away.  Here’s where the dilemma is.  Leaving the pitch short guarantees par from having a short uphill putt/chip.  If I try to get close to the hole and go long, it could very well roll out a long ways.  My typical play is to, if anything, leave it short.  However, do I instead lay back to a bigger distance for my approach, to get a bigger swing with more spin and stop the ball, knowing my dispersion gets bigger? Or do I try and hit driver towards the left tree line, hoping to get an angle on the green that gives you more flat green to work with and stop the ball on the right level?  For a short hole, it does make me think too much.

[p1n9183]

42 minutes ago, phillyk said:

My expectation on this hole is always wanting an easy look at birdie.  But, I rarely get it.

1st you need to work on your speciation's management. For a tour PRO to hole out from the TEE on a 305 yards hole is 3.73. Even as a + handicap (I'm also currently +0.8) you are going to do worst than that. This is an easy hole yes, but is not a birdie hole, most of the times you are going to do a par and eventually you are going to do a birdie, like 1.. or 2 out of 10 rounds (with really sporadic bogeys). Math don't lie.  

From a strategic point of view it´s a pretty straight forward hole, you have 70 yards between the trees without penalties. That's driver, every day all year.

The only thing to consider is, if your dispersion with driver is larger than 70 yards and if hitting a ball into the trees is an automatic lost ball, you are better hitting less club, the club in your bag that you have less than 70 yards off dispersion.   

[TourSpoon]

We have a green similar to that on my course and if you get too close, like 30 yards, there is literally no way to hit and hold the front of the green. The false front is almost always wet, so banging one into the slope is not a great play either. I usually hit less 3 wood so that I can have a pitch that I can hit with some confidence and spin past the false front and hold the front section. Do this and you get rewarded with a great look at birdie. I rarely hit driver on this hole, because its a dogleg right and when firm, driver can run you under some trees, so 3 wood is a better play. But with a back pin, on your hole, I would think driver - pitch is a no brainer. 

 

[phillyk]

58 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

1st you need to work on your speciation's management. For a tour PRO to hole out from the TEE on a 305 yards hole is 3.73. Even as a + handicap (I'm also currently +0.8) you are going to do worst than that. This is an easy hole yes, but is not a birdie hole, most of the times you are going to do a par and eventually you are going to do a birdie, like 1.. or 2 out of 10 rounds (with really sporadic bogeys). Math don't lie.  

Expectation and average means different things, to me at least. Maybe I should phrase it as my goal. It’s like the difference between average score and handicap. I well know what I would average but I don’t shoot for average. I shoot to be better every time, but understand what limitations there are. 

 

1 hour ago, p1n9183 said:

 

From a strategic point of view it´s a pretty straight forward hole, you have 70 yards between the trees without penalties. That's driver, every day all year.
 

For me the question wasn’t as much what I would do off the tee. It’s how to play the approach shot, go for leaving front edge/hope to hop on or go high for it and risk going long leaving a 30-40ft putt back up the hill. 

[Double Mocha Man]

This is a very well-designed hole.  Tantalizingly short.  One of only two greens on the course that roll to the back.  It makes you think.  My longest drive here has been in the greenside trap.  There was a period when I hit a 2 iron (no longer own one of those) off the tee to put my self in position to hit a near-full wedge into the green with lots of backspin.  

Phil, your best bet for birdie is if the hole is cut in the back.  Talk to Mike the Superintendent about that.  If the hole is in the front and it's summer you can chance rolling it up.  If your ball doesn't trickle onto the green then you're going to need to chip well like me.  😄

A difficult hole at that short length.  You've got to think your way through it.  Not a give-away par or birdie.  It's the #14 handicap hole because of its length, but plays much more difficult.

 

[klineka]

2 hours ago, phillyk said:

Driver leaves me a funky, wet, soft pitch from 5-20yds away.  Here’s where the dilemma is.  Leaving the pitch short guarantees par from having a short uphill putt/chip.  If I try to get close to the hole and go long, it could very well roll out a long ways.  My typical play is to, if anything, leave it short.  However, do I instead lay back to a bigger distance for my approach, to get a bigger swing with more spin and stop the ball, knowing my dispersion gets bigger?

Surely you have a better chance of landing it/getting it to stop in that plateau from 5-20yds than you do from say 50-75 yds right? Yes you wont get as much spin on the 5-20 yd shot, but it seems like there could be some variety with how you play the 5-20 yd shot too depending on your lie and the angle. You could bump it into the false front with something like a PW or 9 iron and have it trickle up? If it didn't quite trickle up you'd still have an easy chip/putt right? And it's probably unlikely that it would hit into the false front and still have enough speed to roll down the back of the plateau right? Or you could open the face and go high/soft with it? Or even like a mid trajectory nipper with like a 54/56 degree wedge where you try and pick it clean without taking a divot but still having some spin?

Like I know personally I miss my landing spot by +-5 yds far more often from 50-75yds than I do from 5-20yds. I'd say it's quite rare inside 20 yds that I miss my landing spot by over 5 yds and good chances are you have a better short game than I do.

[KMP]

Easy for all you pluses and low HCs to say.... In my case, driver off the tee since in the PNW wet; no way am I going to have a 275' drive. From there it varies on the situation and distance. full 54 or 60 would be great if close enough and it's not too soggy. In the winter definitely more likely to bump PW off the front to try to stop on front third. 

[klineka]

10 minutes ago, KMP said:

Easy for all you pluses and low HCs to say.... In my case, driver off the tee since in the PNW wet; no way am I going to have a 275' drive. From there it varies on the situation and distance. full 54 or 60 would be great if close enough and it's not too soggy. In the winter definitely more likely to bump PW off the front to try to stop on front third. 

Assuming you can carry it at least 225 to safely carry the fairway bunker right? 

If so then your decision is even easier regardless of if you have 50,60,70,80, etc yds left. Aim for the middle of the green, get your GIR, 2 putt for your par. 

Anytime you make a 4 on a par 4 as a 15 handicap you'd be gaining strokes compared to the average 15 handicapper. Heck you'd probably even be gaining strokes compared to a low single digit handicapper. Getting a 4 on a par 4 would mean you'd only be losing around .3 strokes compared to a PGA tour player, someone who is like 4-7 strokes better than a scratch golfer, so at least 20-25 strokes better than you in terms of handicap.

Edited April 19, 2022 by klineka

[KMP]

23 minutes ago, klineka said:

Assuming you can carry it at least 225 to safely carry the fairway bunker right? 

If so then your decision is even easier regardless of if you have 50,60,70,80, etc yds left. Aim for the middle of the green, get your GIR, 2 putt for your par. 

Anytime you make a 4 on a par 4 as a 15 handicap you'd be gaining strokes compared to the average 15 handicapper. Heck you'd probably even be gaining strokes compared to a low single digit handicapper. Getting a 4 on a par 4 would mean you'd only be losing around .3 strokes compared to a PGA tour player, someone who is like 4-7 strokes better than a scratch golfer, so at least 20-25 strokes better than you in terms of handicap.

I didn't mention the execution of said plan. In practice I would mess up at least one shot and end up having to either punch toward the green from trees, or hit a second pitch from the front of the green. If I was successful at that point, I would then proceed to miss the par putt and hope to be close enough to preserve the bogey.  😋

Edited April 19, 2022 by KMP
fix grammar

[Darkfrog]

As an official 10 handicap, but game currently more like 15 handicap, par is like a birdie for me.

I would tee off with a club that carries the fairway bunker but won't roll out into the greenside bunker. Not taking wind into account, I think this would probably be a 3W in dry conditions, and maybe driver in soft/wet conditions.

Then I would take my odds with a partial wedge to land anywhere on the green, and hopefully walk off with a 2-putt for par.

[billchao]

This might be the easiest one I’ve ever done. 

4i down the left side of the fairway to keep it short of the bunker off the tee. If I miss it right, it won’t be as far right as a longer club so hopefully it stays out of the trees. Wedge to the middle of the green.

[phillyk]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

Surely you have a better chance of landing it/getting it to stop in that plateau from 5-20yds than you do from say 50-75 yds right?

Probably, which is the usual play.

However, the driver plan didn’t quite work as well today.

Smoked driver, but it over drew a bit, hit cart path on fly and kept going.  Ended up near the tree trunk, but managed a good approach to 10ft.

[mohearn]

I don't have your distance, but maybe there's others interested.  Given the winter scenario, I can't reliably carry the trap, so I hit 5-wood which would leave me just barely short of it. Then gap or pw targeting the far edge of the plateau for a flushed shot (meaning most all shots will land a bit shorter.).  Then just sink the birdie putt!  

[TourSpoon]

The first thing I thought of was Sheffler's birdie at #3 at Augusta.  Just do that! 

[mdl]

Depends on how soggy the area in front of the green really is. If it's total muck, edging towards unplayable, then I hit whatever club gets me close to the muck but not in it. If that's 4i, then I skip back to whatever club is short enough that the bunker isn't in play. If it's 225 carry, then it's probably ~200 to the front of it so I'm 5i or 6i depending on weather and wind.

But anything other than total muck and I'm playing driver all day on this. As those of us who've read LSW know, dispersion decreases monotonically with distance. If it's a front pin my average putt is going to be closer hitting 10-20 yards than it will be hitting 50 or 70 or 100 yards. We're not tour pros and we're not playing pro tournament greens. Laying up to a distance is something you do on certain holes with certain pin locations at the Masters, not something you do on the local course!

[Zippo]

I can't even imagine hitting it like you do. For me, that hole is driver, 9 iron and a whole lot of wishful thinking. Unrelated but just curious, are they allowing carts out on the fairway there now? It was cart path only today out at Loomis but there have been a couple of 90 degree to the cart path days.

[DoubleAce]

Thinking 3-wood short right. Theres a lot of room over there and looks like it'd be an OK angle for that pin. Short chip with a 60 and hope it stays on the shelf.

Driver appears to bring in too much risk of getting into the trees left of the green. At least judging from the images.