Playing multiple balls and posting to handicap?

[Zeph]

Ok so it is obviously breaking the rules. But to all of you strict rules following gurus, can you honestly say you've never posted a handicap round where you broke a rule. Taken a gimme on a 2 footer from a playing partner? Tried out your friends new driver? Taken or given advice to/from someone other than your caddie?

I probably have at some point, but I take pride in playing by the rules when posting to a handicap or playing a tournament. Playing by the rules is the best way to compare your game to others. What do we need it for if everyone play by different rules? I've given myself penalty strokes for many things. Moving the ball a little on the green, grounding the club in a bunker, dropping 2,5 clublengths from the spot, etc. Some things that may not have any impact on the result, some that might have a little impact. Still, I have to be honest to myself. I don't want to play by my own rules, I want to play by the rules of golf. Once I got that mentality in place, I didn't worry about it anymore. I ground my club, penalty strokes, move on. Hopefully, that silly mistake will aid in preventing me from doing it again. I can't guarantee 100% that I haven't broken a rule in stipulated rounds, but I don't play, knowing that I'm not playing by the rules. I don't go out and plan on breaking the rules, consistently.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Playing by the rules is the best way to compare your game to others. What do we need it for if everyone play by different rules?

.... Moving the ball a little on the green, ...

Here's an example of why I disagree with the application of some of these rules 'to the letter' in casual rounds.  The best way to compare our game to others is to have a valid handicap where you are playing by the rules ... I do not dispute that.  I also, however, recognize that when I'm playing with friends and it's for fun and not a competition, that I can have "my guard down," so to speak.  I'm not as careful, if you will, in regards to things like accidentally bumping the ball with my putter on the green.

But when I am playing in a tournament, first of all, I will definitely call that on myself if it happens, but more importantly, I won't let that happen, because I'm being extra cautious.  Same thing is true for swatting at a 12" putt from some random angle.

Adding a penalty stroke for bumping the ball 1/16" of an inch at address in a casual round, or counting the stroke where I was farting around and trying to tap it in with the toe of my putter but missed, seems completely disingenuous, and well, cheating, to me.  Akin to sandbagging.  If I was taking it more seriously because I was playing for something, then I would not do those things, therefore I don't count those strokes.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jshots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You know what slays me?  It's when the guys like the last 3 or 4 posts come to a rules forum and start congratulating each other for not playing by the rules.  I have to ask myself, why did they bother to read anything in this forum in the first place if they don't at least respect the rules of golf?  All you want to do is rag on those of us who do respect the game and it's rules.   There are other places for that.  I see this as a venue for those who actually want to learn something.

Jumping to the conclusion that someone who breaks a rule to make the game more enjoyable doesn't respect the rules of golf doesn't really make any sense to me though. Have you literally NEVER broken a rule of golf and posted it to your handicap?

I think the rules are important, and having played quite a few tournaments I definitely respect them. I was raised by a course pro so I was kind of indoctrinated by the rules of golf. I just have a hard time believing that most people follow the rules 100% when playing a casual round, but they still post them for handicap purposes.

The difference is in the mindset.  I don't find the game bore enjoyable when I break the rules.  I can play a hole after breaking a rule and still return the round by following the rules in the handicap manual.  The only time I can think of when I've done that is when playing a full course and my ball is lost under unexpected circumstances, so I don't have a provisional to fall back on.  In that case I mark it as an unfinished hole and take the score I would most likely have made, which is usually a double bogey or ESC.  If there is space between us and the group behind, I will return to the previous spot and play another ball.  That's the only way I can look in the mirror and say "Yes, that was truly a 79 today."

I don't have any issue with others playing that way, only with them coming on the rules forum and trying to find sympathy and justification for it.  Ihave plenty of friends who play golf their own way and we can play together and have a great time.  I don't go Nazi on them - I'm not an idiot.  We just don't compete.  We play to have fun in the way that works for each of us.  They just realize that the scores they shoot and the ones I shoot don't have any relationship to each other.

Originally Posted by jshots

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

What a novel idea.  Some people seem to think it is a confessional where they can get absolution for their sins.  Or permission to go in peace and sin some more.  LOL

Please point me in the direction of the "Absolution for my golfing sins" forum. LOL

Ok so it is obviously breaking the rules. But to all of you strict rules following gurus, can you honestly say you've never posted a handicap round where you broke a rule.

Taken a gimme on a 2 footer from a playing partner? Tried out your friends new driver? Taken or given advice to/from someone other than your caddie?

In all of these cases my answer is that haven't since I started playing competition golf (that's nearly 24 years ago), and I don't now and I won't in the future.

Taken a gimme on a 2 footer from a playing partner? - No, but I have taken a 2 footer from an opponent when playing a match.

Tried out your friends new driver? - At the range, yes.  On the course no.  Fourteen clubs is quite sufficient to get me through a round.

Taken or given advice to/from someone other than your caddie? - No rule says I can't take advice from anyone, I just can't ask for it or offer it.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

This shows up the inherent flaw in the USGA handicap system - all scores are to be returned.

It virtually eliminates the opportunity for social golf.

One effect is that people pick and choose which rounds they declare, often it seems, after the event; encouraging sandbaggers and vanity cappers.

Another is that people criticize the rules because they often conflict with the circumstances in which most people play most of their golf

I was about to post exactly the same thing. So many issues around the rules come from the confusion that the USGA system created between competitive golf and social golf. I've played under both the UK and Australian systems and both only allow non-competition rounds to count towards handicap in limited situations.

It means that there's no confusion caused by playing an extra ball when out by yourself, allowing gimmes, or letting your mate drop a ball rather than walk back to the tee when one mysteriously disappears.

And then you also know that any handicaps are legitimate because all rounds signed for by another golfer and played on a course overseen by a committee.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Mordan

I was about to post exactly the same thing. So many issues around the rules come from the confusion that the USGA system created between competitive golf and social golf. I've played under both the UK and Australian systems and both only allow non-competition rounds to count towards handicap in limited situations.

It means that there's no confusion caused by playing an extra ball when out by yourself, allowing gimmes, or letting your mate drop a ball rather than walk back to the tee when one mysteriously disappears.

And then you also know that any handicaps are legitimate because all rounds signed for by another golfer and played on a course overseen by a committee.

Seems to me that the UK and Australian systems make a lot more sense.  Any chance the US would ever consider adopting a similar one?  Sandbagging and vanity caps would virtually go out the window, I'd think.

[Zeph]

This shows up the inherent flaw in the USGA handicap system - all scores are to be returned. It virtually eliminates the opportunity for social golf. One effect is that people pick and choose which rounds they declare, often it seems, after the event; encouraging sandbaggers and vanity cappers. Another is that people criticize the rules because they often conflict with the circumstances in which most people play most of their golf

What? You can't play practice rounds or rounds in general that are not to be returned?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Seems to me that the UK and Australian systems make a lot more sense.  Any chance the US would ever consider adopting a similar one?  Sandbagging and vanity caps would virtually go out the window, I'd think.

There are still ways to sandbag, but vanity caps are difficult to achieve. You can sandbag by intentionally playing badly, or blowing out scores over the final few holes if you don't think you're going to win. But you still need to do it in competitions so it takes longer and there much more chance of it being noticed and dealt with.

[RayG]

But- what if he/she played 2 balls on each hole, played them down and as they lie and kept each score individually? Is that practicing, or playing 36 holes simultaneously?

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by Mordan

but vanity caps are difficult to achieve.

are those like expensive watches?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by RayG

But- what if he/she played 2 balls on each hole, played them down and as they lie and kept each score individually? Is that practicing, or playing 36 holes simultaneously?

Practice.  Doesn't matter how you do it, the rules of golf and the handicap rules don't allow 2 balls to be played and scored simultaneously.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Here's an example of why I disagree with the application of some of these rules 'to the letter' in casual rounds.  The best way to compare our game to others is to have a valid handicap where you are playing by the rules ... I do not dispute that.  I also, however, recognize that when I'm playing with friends and it's for fun and not a competition, that I can have "my guard down," so to speak.  I'm not as careful, if you will, in regards to things like accidentally bumping the ball with my putter on the green.

But when I am playing in a tournament, first of all, I will definitely call that on myself if it happens, but more importantly, I won't let that happen, because I'm being extra cautious.  Same thing is true for swatting at a 12" putt from some random angle.

Adding a penalty stroke for bumping the ball 1/16" of an inch at address in a casual round, or counting the stroke where I was farting around and trying to tap it in with the toe of my putter but missed, seems completely disingenuous, and well, cheating, to me.  Akin to sandbagging.  If I was taking it more seriously because I was playing for something, then I would not do those things, therefore I don't count those strokes.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by turtleback

What I don't get is why it is necessary to violate the rules in order to be sociable.  If you always play by the rules then you don't ave to keep your "guard up" to play by the rules, you just play your normal game.  Playing a "casual" round in which certain rules are ignored is just putting a number down on a card that wan't earned.  Why even bother keeping score?

It's not "necessary."  What I'm saying is that when I'm playing relaxed, social rounds, I'm less focused than if I'm playing in a tournament.  I don't really see why I have to explain it again, but whatever, here goes.  If I am less focused, I'm more inclined to accidentally bump the ball with my putter on the green, or carelessly miss short putts cuz I'm rushing, or whatever, and if I'm playing to the letter of the law, then I'm basically sandbagging.

Then I play in and win a tournament because I have an inflated handicap, because "hey, I played by the rules so that's acceptable."  I'm saying, no, that's not acceptable.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Zeph

What? You can't play practice rounds or rounds in general that are not to be returned?

I'm not sure what you mean by that but the GB & Ireland and similar European systems only adjust handicaps in formal singles competitions and properly marked supplementary rounds (declared as such before play). In all other play no handicap adjustments are made. The most common social form of play is variations on  4BBB stableford. Stableford of course speeds thing up.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

I'm not sure what you mean by that but the GB & Ireland and similar European systems only adjust handicaps in formal singles competitions and properly marked supplementary rounds (declared as such before play). In all other play no handicap adjustments are made. The most common social form of play is variations on  4BBB stableford. Stableford of course speeds thing up.

At my club in the south of England the most common form of social play was 4BBB match play. Match play allowed conceded putts and holes to keep things moving.

Another common one within roll up groups was to play individual stableford within the wider group and then 4BBB match play within each 4. Obviously it doesn't work from a rules point of view but as it was just social play no one minded and it kept things interesting so that even if you knew you were out of the individual stableford early in the round you could still be in the match play.

[Rulesman]

Another popular variant is teams (ie group) of 3 or 4 playing stableford, best 2 or 3 to count. If your score is not needed, pick up but no gimmes. In my roll up yesterday, 7 teams of four all played in under 4 hours on a longish walking par 73 yard course.

Handicaps (within these informal roll ups) are adjusted based on winnings or losses over a month. I'm playing off 3 over my CONGU handicap

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

What I don't get is why it is necessary to violate the rules in order to be sociable.  If you always play by the rules then you don't ave to keep your "guard up" to play by the rules, you just play your normal game.  Playing a "casual" round in which certain rules are ignored is just putting a number down on a card that wan't earned.  Why even bother keeping score?

It's not "necessary."  What I'm saying is that when I'm playing relaxed, social rounds, I'm less focused than if I'm playing in a tournament.  I don't really see why I have to explain it again, but whatever, here goes.  If I am less focused, I'm more inclined to accidentally bump the ball with my putter on the green, or carelessly miss short putts cuz I'm rushing, or whatever, and if I'm playing to the letter of the law, then I'm basically sandbagging.

Then I play in and win a tournament because I have an inflated handicap, because "hey, I played by the rules so that's acceptable."  I'm saying, no, that's not acceptable.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You can do what you think is best - nobody is twisting your arm. I can't even comprehend not playing for the best score possible. My brain isn't wired that way (must be a California thing ).

Nevermind.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Nevermind.

I believe you mean "never mind".