Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[colin007]

  saevel25 said:

Ground under repair is an area designated by the course as abnormal ground conditions. Not all abnormal ground conditions are ground under repair, such as casual water or a hole created by a burrowing create (GOPHER!!)

According to the explanation, there are instances of GUR that are NOT marked, such as a pile of brush that is to be removed. It seems to me like a sand and seed filled divot would be easy to define and identify, more so than is this or isn't this a divot? If there's sand in it, it's unmarked GUR. Not being a dick, I've never moved my ball out of a divot. It really hardly ever happens.

[saevel25]

[QUOTE name="colin007" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/486#post_1020747"] According to the explanation, there are instances of GUR that are NOT marked, such as a pile of brush that is to be removed. It seems to me like a sand and seed filled divot would be easy to define and identify, more so than is this or isn't this a divot? If there's sand in it, it's unmarked GUR. Not being a dick, I've never moved my ball out of a divot. It really hardly ever happens.[/QUOTE] Yet some courses don't use sand and seed fill. It wouldn't be consistent. To me a golf course is meant to be played, meaning divots are part of the course. It isn't the same as, lets say the golf course is redoing a bunker so they mark it as ground  under repair.  Also, if it is a pile of brush, then that is a specific act by a greenskeeper. I don't believe you, as a golfer, can stipulate what is or what isn't ground under repair.

[colin007]

  saevel25 said:

Yet some courses don't use sand and seed fill. It wouldn't be consistent. To me a golf course is meant to be played, meaning divots are part of the course. It isn't the same as, lets say the golf course is redoing a bunker so they mark it as ground  under repair.  Also, if it is a pile of brush, then that is a specific act by a greenskeeper. I don't believe you, as a golfer, can stipulate what is or what isn't ground under repair.

I agree with your first point, makes sense. However, the explanation you posted said that there may be time when the GUR isn't marked. If I hit my ball into a pile of sticks that were collected but not removed yet, and I can't move them without moving my ball, then that would seem like a time to pull your ball out and drop since it's clearly GUR.

[rehmwa]

  colin007 said:

If I hit my ball into a pile of sticks that were collected but not removed yet, and I can't move them without moving my ball, then that would seem like a time to pull your ball out and drop since it's clearly GUR.

Or, you hit the ball and the pile of sticks.  Likely then then greenskeeper will then mark his work in progress rather than be stuck redoing the work due to rote rules following......  (kidding - I advocate doing what we can to be courteous to grounds staff - it's quite a job when done right)

[phan52]

  Seeded Divots said:

Seeded Divots: Golfers are reminded that in 2010 the R&A; withdrew the facility for golf clubs to establish a local rule giving relief from seeded divots and the ball must be played as it lies. However we would request that in casual play common sense should prevail and relief should be taken.

http://www.muckhartgolf.com/page.aspx?pid=12140

Originally Posted by Kenn

So local rules did at one time allow for the seeded divot rule even if common sense does not prevail in your rule book.

A seeded (or otherwise) divot relief rule is no longer allowed yet local rules declaring what is ground under repair is acceptable.  A local rule stating that all divots are ground under repair accomplishes the same thing.

If I am just knocking around the course and pretty much just practicing, hitting multiple shots for example, I will take the ball out of a divot. I believe that is what they mean by "casual play". I would never move my ball if I was playing a round where I am posting a score.

[Rulesman]

  phan52 said:

If I am just knocking around the course and pretty much just practicing, hitting multiple shots for example, I will take the ball out of a divot. I believe that is what they mean by "casual play". I would never move my ball if I was playing a round where I am posting a score.

Why not use the opportunity to get some practice playing out of divot holes. It might improve your tournament or handicap scores.

[colin007]

  rehmwa said:

Or, you hit the ball and the pile of sticks.  Likely then then greenskeeper will then mark his work in progress rather than be stuck redoing the work due to rote rules following......  (kidding - I advocate doing what we can to be courteous to grounds staff - it's quite a job when done right)

Lol... But it seems to me that I can both follow the rules and at the same time take relief from an unmarked pile of sticks as GUR. Am I right?

[David in FL]

  Rulesman said:

Why not use the opportunity to get some practice playing out of divot holes. It might improve your tournament or handicap scores.

Exactly.

[moe63]

Gidday everyone,

Here's a thought that has probably been discussed before. I played at a mates club last week and they had, as a local rule that a divot on the fairway, if repaired, is treated as GUR and affords a free lift and place. The idea was to encourage good habits with regards repairing divots. My question is, is the principle sound and should you be able to take relief from a divot mark? I know the rule, but it does 'twist my undies' to drill one straight down the middle only to find the ball sitting in someones old divot. REPAIRED OR NOT!

[iacas]

  moe63 said:

Gidday everyone,

Here's a thought that has probably been discussed before. I played at a mates club last week and they had, as a local rule that a divot on the fairway, if repaired, is treated as GUR and affords a free lift and place. The idea was to encourage good habits with regards repairing divots. My question is, is the principle sound and should you be able to take relief from a divot mark? I know the rule, but it does 'twist my undies' to drill one straight down the middle only to find the ball sitting in someones old divot. REPAIRED OR NOT!

I vote that the principle is not sound. Divots are not GUR nor are they abnormal ground conditions.

Plus, there's no real way to define a divot in such a way that everyone can apply it evenly, and equity is at or near the heart of the Rules of Golf.

I merged this thread because your question(s) are answered by many of the previous posts, which address this very thing. It's not 100% the same exact thing, but it's close.

[Fourputt]

  moe63 said:

Gidday everyone,

Here's a thought that has probably been discussed before. I played at a mates club last week and they had, as a local rule that a divot on the fairway, if repaired, is treated as GUR and affords a free lift and place. The idea was to encourage good habits with regards repairing divots. My question is, is the principle sound and should you be able to take relief from a divot mark? I know the rule, but it does 'twist my undies' to drill one straight down the middle only to find the ball sitting in someones old divot. REPAIRED OR NOT!

From the Rules of Golf - Decision 33-8/34;  The wording does not allow any wiggle room.

  Q. said:

33-8/34

Relief from Divot Holes

Q.May a Committee make a Local Rule providing relief without penalty from divot holes or repaired divot holes (e.g., holes that have been filled with sand and/or seed mix)?

A.No. Such a Local Rule would modify Rule 13-1 and is not authorized.

[turtleback]

  moe63 said:

Gidday everyone,

Here's a thought that has probably been discussed before. I played at a mates club last week and they had, as a local rule that a divot on the fairway, if repaired, is treated as GUR and affords a free lift and place. The idea was to encourage good habits with regards repairing divots. My question is, is the principle sound and should you be able to take relief from a divot mark? I know the rule, but it does 'twist my undies' to drill one straight down the middle only to find the ball sitting in someones old divot. REPAIRED OR NOT!

It twists my undies too.  But then I remember the times I've sliced or hooked a ball into the woods, got a good bounce, and the ball ended up in the fairway.  So if you want a drop for a bad break, in fairness you should have to throw the ball back into the woods when you get that good break.

To me, golf is about persistence and overcoming, not about expecting to be treated "fairly", which I'm not even sure I understand, in the golf context, since unfairness always is cited when there is a bad break but never when there is a good break - and I don't see what is "fair" about that.

[dkolo]

  turtleback said:

It twists my undies too.  But then I remember the times I've sliced or hooked a ball into the woods, got a good bounce, and the ball ended up in the fairway.  So if you want a drop for a bad break, in fairness you should have to throw the ball back into the woods when you get that good break.

To me, golf is about persistence and overcoming, not about expecting to be treated "fairly", which I'm not even sure I understand, in the golf context, since unfairness always is cited when there is a bad break but never when there is a good break - and I don't see what is "fair" about that.

The only time a divot has really irked me was when my approach shot landed about 10 yard short of the 17th green, a few inches into the rough. The ball was under a partially flipped over sheet of grass from some schmuck's flop shot that he didn't step on and flatten out. That made me feel unfairly put out, largely because it was so close to the green and blasting it out made it so hard to predict how the ball would come out. Otherwise, yeah, I completely agree, golf isn't fair, haha. Live with the lies you get.

[natureboy]

  Fourputt said:

Show me where in the rules of golf the term "fairway" is defined.  The course consists of 4 defined areas.  The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played, hazards (including water hazards and bunkers), and through the green which is all of the course not included in the first three designated areas.  There is no "fairway", so the fact that your ball lies in it is irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned.

Note:  For whatever reason, the ruling bodies at some point chose to confuse the issue by adding the words "closely mowed area" referred to as "fairway height" in one place, and only one place, to Rule 25-2 (Embedded Ball), but I can only think that it was done as compromise when the vote was split on how to apply the rule.  It's really the only place I can find where they used a term like that which is not defined.  There is never any definition of "fairway" or "fairway height", so all they do with that is add unnecessary confusion to the rules.  There is no reason I can think of that the Embedded Ball rule shouldn't apply to "through the green".  This is the only place in the rules where fairway is treated as being any different from rough.

I agree with this. But I would agree that if you can find an embedded ball in the rough (good luck on a sloppy day or in a wet seep at the bottom of a hill) it would seem fair to me to take a free drop.

I suppose it was considered more equitable for someone who safely hit the fairway to be able to dig their ball out. The drop on the fairway would more closely mirror the fair results of a shot hit on a fairway in fair condition, while a drop in the rough may lack the energy to get as deep in the rough as it may have gone in dry conditions without embedding. When it's dry, though, I do generally expect at least one bounce in the normal rough when landing on the fly from a full shot so I don't personally see a drop on embedded ball through the green as inequitable.

[Asheville]

At my course embedded balls "through the green" are more to be found in the non-closely mown steep grass bunker faces than in the rough. That's why we have the Local Rule.

[Aflighter]

I personally believe that divots should be played as free drop nearest relief because the course is not designed or meant to be played  out of divots in fairways.I stated in a previous rule about being able to tap down spike marks left by other golfers on green as like I said the green wasn't meant to be played by others making changes to it even though no on purpose.The only problem with a rule for divots is sometimes how would you know if its a half grown in divot or just thin grass or something haa.You open up a possible can of worms in cases like that.

[iacas]

  Aflighter said:

I personally believe that divots should be played as free drop nearest relief because the course is not designed or meant to be played  out of divots in fairways.

Yes it is. As long as we've had golf, we've had divots. And yet, never in the 400 or whatever years have they declared divots GUR.

  Aflighter said:

The only problem with a rule for divots is sometimes how would you know if its a half grown in divot or just thin grass or something haa.You open up a possible can of worms in cases like that.

That's kind of a big problem, wouldn't you agree?

[boogielicious]

I find divots and partially filled in divots a challenge.  But that is what golf is all about, the challenge.  Sometime I just laugh at where the ball goes after one of these shots out of a divot.