Tiger Woods Master Catch-All Discussion

[Ty_Webb]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

We're talking about what he actually did at the PGA Championship, not some hypothetical Jack Nicklaus-like thing where you aim left-center and fade it to the right-center.

You might be. I was talking simply about that missing fairways to the left and to the right doesn't mean you have a two way miss going on. If it did, Tom Lehman would have never missed a fairway right in his life, but I'll wager he did. Did you ever miss a cut to the left? I sure have and I saw a good number of shot tracer style shots from Tiger this week that started left and faded, but not enough to get to the fairway.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

You might be.

You were too. You responded to a comment specifically about his Sunday round from @Zeph.

At best it was quite unclear that you’d switched or when you did.

[sofingaw]

Maybe I’m just simple, but how can one say that with 13 misses one way and 11 the other way that there’s no ‘two-way miss? 

Seems like if you are routinely missing in two different directions, is that not quite plainly the definition of a ‘two-way miss’.

[nevets88]

 

[Shindig]

@nevets88 this means he's added the third playoff tournament, right?  I guess he really really wants to get to East Lake  

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, sofingaw said:

Maybe I’m just simple, but how can one say that with 13 misses one way and 11 the other way that there’s no ‘two-way miss? 

Seems like if you are routinely missing in two different directions, is that not quite plainly the definition of a ‘two-way miss’.

Two way miss to my mind means that the ball is going both left and right of where you’re lined up. If you play a fade then sometimes the ball will go straight and sometimes it will slice but hopefully most of the time it will fade. Almost all the time it will finish up not to the left of where you lined up.

If you aim it down the left and hit it straight you’ll miss left. If you slice it you’ll miss right. That doesn’t mean you have a two way miss. Take Dustin Johnson. He’s the best ranked driver in 2018 strokes gained off the tee. He has 15% left rough percentage and 18% right rough percentage. He almost exclusively plays a fade. Would you say he has a two way miss?

tiger said he had a two way miss on Sunday so I’m sure he did. What’s less clear is whether he fixed it on his way round. I suspect he did because his driving improved on the back nine (hard not to to be fair). That he missed left and right does not mean that he didn’t fix it. That’s all. 

[ScouseJohnny]

3 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

Nicklaus-like thing where you aim left-center and fade it to the right-center

Ah, the old school of golf.

[mvmac]

7 hours ago, Zeph said:

Do you think he did figure it out? He first missed two left, then two right, then left, then two right, then fairway for four holes, one right, one fairway.

I think he did for the most part on the back nine, which is what I was referring to.

Or maybe it was just the law of averages, he had to hit a few fairways eventually.

5 hours ago, klineka said:

I saw some things on either twitter or instagram from TaylorMade that indicated the versions of the M3 and M4 that are used on tour dont have the twist face in them. Not sure how true it is. I'll see if I can find it

Wouldn't surprise me, the pros don't miss it that far off center, even on bad shots. The twist face allows the ball start more offline, left or right, to compensate for off-center hits (gear effect). So I can see some pros not wanting to chance seeing the ball start more offline on a toe-center of heel-center strike.

[Ty_Webb]

15 hours ago, ScouseJohnny said:

Ah, the old school of golf.

I didn't say that. 

[rehmwa]

19 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

missing fairways to the left and to the right doesn't mean you have a two way miss going on

I pretty much define a two way miss as missing the fairway on both sides.  Pretty much because regardless of our stock flight shape, we all typically intend to end up on the fairway.

(I acknowledge you are trying to say missing your "intended (starting?) line of flight" on both sides being your personal definition of  two way miss here, and then applying that to someone that has a starting line off to one specific side and curves it back as the special case to make your point.  It's an exception argument at best.)

16 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

If you aim it down the left and hit it straight you’ll miss left. If you slice it you’ll miss right. That doesn’t mean you have a two way miss.

yeah - this is where I disagree.  but I get what you are saying

Edited August 15, 2018 by rehmwa

[Ty_Webb]

15 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I pretty much define a two way miss as missing the fairway on both sides.  Pretty much because regardless of our stock flight shape, we all typically intend to end up on the fairway.

(I acknowledge you are trying to say missing your "intended (starting?) line of flight" on both sides being your personal definition of  two way miss here, and then applying that to someone that has a starting line off to one specific side and curves it back as the special case to make your point.  It's an exception argument at best.)

yeah - this is where I disagree.  but I get what you are saying

Do you think DJ has a two way miss this season? He's fairly similar on fairways missed left and right. 15% and 18% respectively. Find me a player on tour with a 0% fairways missed on one side and you'll have found a unicorn. Most people have a ball flight that goes one way or the other most of the time. All of those people will aim somewhere other than the middle of the fairway so that the ball winds up in the middle of the fairway. All of those people will miss fairways on both sides. I don't think it's particularly helpful to say that all of those people have a two way miss.

[rehmwa]

Arguments that asks for 0% missed or it doesn't count is a peeve of mine.  Golf isn't perfection.  and 15% either side is a strawman when the topic started with a well known player missing 9 of 9 fairways....

tell you what, I'll acknowledge that everyone has a 2 way miss based on your argument.  I'll counter with 15% each side is decent while 50% each side is a real problem.  So we can then dicker on what's a real 2-way miss, vs a good players normal or well managed flight distribution.

I'll also offer up that Dustin's shot is a baby fade.  So can you, in turn, tell me that he's NEVER hit a draw or hook accidentlally?  If not, will acknowledge that he also has a 2 way miss even under your definition?

Edited August 15, 2018 by rehmwa

[Ty_Webb]

3 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Oh NO!  another argument that asks for 0% missed or it doesn't count.  Golf isn't perfection.  and 15% either side is a silly strawman when the topic started with a well known player missing 9 of 9 fairways....

 

tell you what, I'll acknowledge that everyone has a 2 way miss based on your argument.  I'll counter with 15% each side is decent while 50% each side is a real problem.  So we can then dicker on what's a real 2-way miss, vs a good players normal or well managed flight distribution.

My point is not really the 0% thing, but that someone who misses let's say 25% right and only 10% left is aiming in the wrong place. If you're aiming right for your shot pattern, you should be roughly equivalent left and right. DJ is roughly equivalent. 15 vs 18. I suspect that almost everyone on the PGA Tour is because they wouldn't get on tour if they were aiming in the wrong place. I agree entirely that 50% each side is a real problem. Hard to say the blame is where they are aiming it though. That means missing every single fairway and yes that's not good. 

The entire point of my posting in this discussion is simply to point out that missing on both sides doesn't mean you have a two way miss. A two way miss will mean a lot more missed fairways and those misses will be wider too. The shot pattern will be significantly larger, which makes it extremely hard to manage and hard to score. That's what Tiger had. 7/7 missed fairways on the front nine suggests that he had a two way miss going. That the misses were split left and right does not (not necessarily)

[rehmwa]

7 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

The entire point of my posting in this discussion is simply to point out that missing on both sides doesn't mean you have a two way miss.

I acknowledged your basis for your point and understood it.  Just simply disagreed with the initial premise that defines a miss as missing your start line vs missing the final result.  I VERY much resonate that a balanced percentage of left vs right with a fairly repeatable swing shape indicates a positive understanding of ones swing - and that kind of also cancels out difference in definition as a debate item (it's now moot).  then it just comes down to if that balanced percentage is too big then THAT indicates excessive optimism and likely a need to fix it or not bite off the longer clubs as much.  (of course, if the player is just randomly spraying, then that's a whole other category balanced or not)

Thanks for the discussion.  We're on the same page as much as we can be here.  That's an internet victory.

Edited August 15, 2018 by rehmwa

[turtleback]

FYI, you guys are talking about semantics, not golf.

[colin007]

Two way miss means the balls is curving opposite of what you intended, at least to me

Also, I was wondering just a little about Tiger's ball speed, carry distance, and hitting the sweet spot, I didn't think the ball was carrying as far as it should've been considering his swing speed.

[Zeph]

7 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Two way miss means the balls is curving opposite of what you intended, at least to me

Also, I was wondering just a little about Tiger's ball speed, carry distance, and hitting the sweet spot, I didn't think the ball was carrying as far as it should've been considering his swing speed.

I think that is a better definition. If your planned shot always is a fade that sometimes goes straight, a consistent draw or hook would be a two-way miss. It's not so much the end result as the actual ball flight compared to what your intentions were.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Zeph

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

FYI, you guys are talking about semantics, not golf.

pretty much my point

1 hour ago, Zeph said:

I think that is a better definition. If your planned shot always is a fade that sometimes goes straight, a consistent draw or hook would be a two-way miss. It's not so much the end result as the actual ball flight compared to what your intentions were.

meh - if I hit 18 fairways hitting draws and fades and straight shots mixed all day.  No one will accuse me of any kind of miss.  When I miss right, it's a miss to the right - regardless of whether it's a hard push or over-faded.  Ditto left.

Edited August 15, 2018 by rehmwa