Brandel at it again

[9iron]

You have some strange opinions, man. PGA Tour players are good at hitting a ball. That's about it. For technique, quite often, they're stupid monkeys. They can't be out there thinking about the hows and whys - they just have to execute.

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.  I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.

[billchao]

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.  I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but no offense intended, Erik is likely to be in a much better position to judge how high level players think and play than you probably are.

[Mr. Desmond]

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.  I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.

Well, Dustin Johnson doesn't help your cause.

And I've read enough Golf Digest and Golf articles over the years to recognize that what many Touring Pros say they do and what they do has no semblance with reality.

[colin007]

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.  I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.

What's your position based on? Erik's is based on experience.

[jamo]

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.

This may be somewhat reasonable. At least something people can disagree about. [quote name="9iron" url="/t/76834/brandel-at-it-again/30_30#post_1047808"] I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.  [/quote] Not sure where you're coming from with this part.

[Golfingdad]

Neither of these guys sound like biomecahnical geniuses, but both of them could play and both of them knew how to swing a club and could teach someone else to swing a club. If you believe neither Snead nor Trevino could teach someone how to swing a club then I disagree with both of you. Additionally, I think a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about what Brandle Chamblee does or does not know.

What is biomechanics anyway? The study of mechanics in sports movement. You think he doesn't know how the body is moving in a golf swing? I think everyone on tour understands it well enough. How good they are at explaining it, who knows. But I think they understand the basics.

How could you put both of those two statements together in the same post?  You insist that simply because Harmon or Chamblee or Snead or Trevino could play golf well, that they automatically would be good teachers, yet in (almost) the same breath you admit you have no idea how good they could possibly be at explaining a swing.

How good could somebody possibly be at teaching the golf swing movements if they couldn't explain it well?

This is why I suck at trying to teach golf to my wife or friends.  They see me (I'm not great, but way better than the ones that ask me for advice) and ask me to show them what I'm doing.  My answer ... Uhh, I dunno??  And I can guarantee you that my ability with words will not go up if I get a lot better at golf.  Meaning, even if I improved to the point that I could win majors, I would still not be a very good teacher.

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.  I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.

I'm not sure you've read and understand the "Stupid Monkey" thread then.  And I don't get the "defensive" comment.

[iacas]

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.  I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.

Well, I have absolutely zero interest in going on Tour and teaching PGA Tour players, so I don't know why I'd be overly defensive. I'm not the least bit worried about an influx of former PGA Tour players taking over some of my business, if that's what you mean.

I've been on the range with them many times, worked with and helped and listened to the instructions they've gotten, walked the fairways with them during practice rounds, and helped some individually and as part of a small team on the range from time to time.

That's the basis of my opinion: observation of PGA Tour players and their instructors, as close as you can get, including having taught some.

PGA Tour players are great at hitting the ball. Absolutely great.

They're not swing experts, they're not technically minded, they don't know biomechanics, physics, or geometry.

I thought to liken it to a F1 driver just driving while his team of scientists and mechanics work on the cars, but I think those guys are pretty tuned in to what their cars are doing. Like, orders of magnitude more than the average PGA Tour star.

BTW, while I strive to keep things simple for every student I have, I'm especially cautious with better players, to keep things simple, and make smaller changes more slowly. It's very consistent, too: the better the player, the less they care about the "why" and the more they care about the "how" (or the "what"). "My instructor says to do this little thing here with my right wrist in this part of the swing." Ask the guy why and he'll probably say "because I hit it better when I do it." And that's all they want to know, because it's all they care about . They just want to hit it better. They don't care about the "why" because they don't have to teach it to someone else.

To say it again: a PGA Tour player doesn't care ( nor should they, honestly ) about the WHY of the golf swing. They just need to know the WHAT/HOW part. "What/How" puts food on their table (well, that and a bunch of other stuff) and trophies in their display case. Why doesn't get them anything. They don't earn extra money for being able to explain something, and that knowledge doesn't make the ball go in the hole any faster than being able to DO the thing properly.

[mvmac]

I completely disagree with your assertion here that with regard to technique tour pros are stupid monkeys.  I think your position on this subject is overly defensive because youi are an instruictor yourself.

Being a Stupid Monkey is actually a compliment and something most golfers can learn from. Did you not click the link?

Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean they know a lot about the golf swing. To assume that is ridiculous. What they are experts on is how their swing feels to them and how their feels change ball flight. There have been great players that can't even tell you the reason the ball starts in the direction it does. Books written by Hogan, Nicklaus and Tiger have plenty of mis-information on swing technique.

[9iron]

Being a Stupid Monkey is actually a compliment and something most golfers can learn from. Did you not click the link?

Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean they know a lot about the golf swing. To assume that is ridiculous. What they are experts on is how their swing feels to them and how their feels change ball flight. There have been great players that can't even tell you the reason the ball starts in the direction it does. Books written by Hogan, Nicklaus and Tiger have plenty of mis-information on swing technique.

Calling someone a stupid monkey is a compliment? Not where I come from. And yes, I clicked the link, read the first paragraph which is shown below, and stopped right there. I found the comment in bold to be offensive and did not care to read on.

If you spend any time with a PGA Tour player, particularly one who is working on his game, you'll start to realize something very quickly. These guys are good. Spend a little more time with the player, though, and you'll realize something else. These guys are stupid.

Well, I have absolutely zero interest in going on Tour and teaching PGA Tour players, so I don't know why I'd be overly defensive. I'm not the least bit worried about an influx of former PGA Tour players taking over some of my business, if that's what you mean.

Not what I mean at all. I don't believe you will be teaching touir pros anytime soon, nor do I think you'd ever expect to teach tour pros.

Originally Posted by iacas

I've been on the range with them many times, worked with and helped and listened to the instructions they've gotten, walked the fairways with them during practice rounds, and helped some individually and as part of a small team on the range from time to time.

That's the basis of my opinion: observation of PGA Tour players and their instructors, as close as you can get, including having taught some.

PGA Tour players are great at hitting the ball. Absolutely great.

They're not swing experts, they're not technically minded, they don't know biomechanics, physics, or geometry.

I appreciate you are coming at this from your own personal experiences, and I am not going to claim tour pros are all rocket scientists when that is clearly not the case. But your statement is so broad sweeping here as to include all tour players. You should realize this is an absurd generalization of a large group of people. Not all athletes are stereotypical dumb jocks, nor are all all "dumb jocks" so dumb they can't explain what they do, how they do it, or why they do it for the benefit of others. If you said that Dustin Johnson is a dumb jock, while Johnson might be offended, I'd probably sit here and think you are correct. To suggest everyone on tour is a stupid monkey just comes off so patently ridiculous that it makes having this discuission pointless.

BTW, while I strive to keep things simple for every student I have, I'm especially cautious with better players, to keep things simple, and make smaller changes more slowly. It's very consistent, too: the better the player, the less they care about the "why" and the more they care about the "how" (or the "what"). "My instructor says to do this little thing here with my right wrist in this part of the swing." Ask the guy why and he'll probably say "because I hit it better when I do it." And that's all they want to know, because it's all they care about. They just want to hit it better. They don't care about the "why" because they don't have to teach it to someone else.

To say it again: a PGA Tour player doesn't care (nor should they, honestly) about the WHY of the golf swing. They just need to know the WHAT/HOW part. "What/How" puts food on their table (well, that and a bunch of other stuff) and trophies in their display case. Why doesn't get them anything. They don't earn extra money for being able to explain something, and that knowledge doesn't make the ball go in the hole any faster than being able to DO the thing properly.

[Ernest Jones]

@9iron are you really this thick or are you just being intentional obtuse? You read one paragraph of a fairly in-depth post and then STOPPED reading it. You don't even know what you're arguing about. Nobody is saying that Tour players are stupid, nobody. The "Stupid Monkey" moniker isn't synonymous with "Stupid" and anyone who actually read the thread would know that, which kinda makes all your angst and indignation look...well...stupid. Have you not noticed how many members have Stupid Monkey badges? If you read the thread you'd know what they signify and why none of us are outraged at being labeled as such. Seriously dude, arguing from such a clueless viewpoint (you haven't even read what your disputing for cryin' out loud) makes you come across as a bit of a moron. Not saying you are a moron, but that's the picture you're painting.

[9iron]

@9iron are you really this thick or are you just being intentional obtuse? You read one paragraph of a fairly in-depth post and then STOPPED reading it. You don't even know what you're arguing about. Nobody is saying that Tour players are stupid, nobody. The "Stupid Monkey" moniker isn't synonymous with "Stupid" and anyone who actually read the thread would know that, which kinda makes all your angst and indignation look...well...stupid.

OK, I just went and read the entire article. I can see that Erik attempts to come off as endearing, but I think he goes about it in a poor way. Calling any group of people stupid or monkeys isn't very complimentary in my view, even if meant to be endearing.

Have you not noticed how many members have Stupid Monkey badges?

Nope. I am guessing you are calling the little icon at the bottom of your post a badge, but I don't have any of them and don't really read them. I just read what people write. That is all I have time for. I don't live on this message board 24 x 7.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

@9iron are you really this thick or are you just being intentional obtuse? You read one paragraph of a fairly in-depth post and then STOPPED reading it. You don't even know what you're arguing about. Nobody is saying that Tour players are stupid, nobody. The "Stupid Monkey" moniker isn't synonymous with "Stupid" and anyone who actually read the thread would know that, which kinda makes all your angst and indignation look...well...stupid.

OK, I just went and read the entire article. I can see that Erik attempts to come off as endearing, but I think he goes about it in a poor way. Calling any group of people stupid or monkeys isn't very complimentary in my view, even if meant to be endearing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Have you not noticed how many members have Stupid Monkey badges?

Nope. I am guessing you are calling the little icon at the bottom of your post a badge, but I don't have any of them and don't really read them. I just read what people write. That is all I have time for. I don't live on this message board 24 x 7.

Do you really?  It seems you misread a lot.

Stevie Ray Vaughn was an incredible guitar player. Phenomenal actually.  He could not read music.  No clue.  Could he teach you how to be a great musician?  Possibly, but he would have to leave out all of the music theory part.  He could say, "Just do it like this!"  But the student would eventually get frustrated because he could not keep up with the instructor.  Could Tiger Woods teach me how to hit certain shots?  Sure.  Could he teach me how to be the best possible player I can be?  Possibly, but I think he would expect me to be able to do what he does, which I cannot.  Whereas a great teacher would analyze what I can do and work methodically to improve what I can do.  There is a big difference.

[skydog]

PGA Tour players are great at hitting the ball. Absolutely great.

They're not swing experts, they're not technically minded, they don't know biomechanics, physics, or geometry.

This seems like a wildly inaccruate generalization and one that I would think most touring pros would take issue with. I think you overly inflate the skill/knowledge set of instructor's relative to tour pros when it comes to understanding the swing. Most tour pros wouldn't make good instructors because they can't relate to the average duffer but when it comes to understanding the mechanics of their swing, and the golf swing in general, they are experts in everything that actually matters. It's not that their "stupid monkeys" or whatever superlative you call them, it's that most of them are brilliant when it comes to the swing and geniuses typically don't make good teachers. Imagine Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting trying to teach math to someone with a 95 IQ- it's not going to work.

[3putter]

I might be wrong, but there's some floating assumption that Sean Foley and Tiger were working on some complex, trackman-based swing algorithm. Based on Foley's interviews and account of his work by other, it appears to me that he's doing the same thing many coaches do...correct flaws/make improvements....except he uses HD video as an aid, and communicates his point with technically sound vocabulary.

Do you really?  It seems you misread a lot.

Stevie Ray Vaughn was an incredible guitar player. Phenomenal actually.  He could not read music.  No clue.  Could he teach you how to be a great musician?  Possibly, but he would have to leave out all of the music theory part.  He could say, "Just do it like this!"  But the student would eventually get frustrated because he could not keep up with the instructor.  Could Tiger Woods teach me how to hit certain shots?  Sure.  Could he teach me how to be the best possible player I can be?  Possibly, but I think he would expect me to be able to do what he does, which I cannot.  Whereas a great teacher would analyze what I can do and work methodically to improve what I can do.  There is a big difference.

Off topic: Pardon me, but this here is the TRUTH of LIFE

[mvmac]

This seems like a wildly inaccruate generalization and one that I would think most touring pros would take issue with. I think you overly inflate the skill/knowledge set of instructor's relative to tour pros when it comes to understanding the swing. Most tour pros wouldn't make good instructors because they can't relate to the average duffer but when it comes to understanding the mechanics of their swing, and the golf swing in general, they are experts in everything that actually matters. It's not that their "stupid monkeys" or whatever superlative you call them, it's that most of them are brilliant when it comes to the swing and geniuses typically don't make good teachers. Imagine Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting trying to teach math to someone with a 95 IQ- it's not going to work.

Again, being a Stupid Monkey is something most golfers should be striving for, it's a good thing. We see too many golfers seeking knowledge about the golf swing that leads them to trying to analyze their own swing where they find 10 things that are wrong. Every golfer can find 10 things that are "wrong" with their swing, being a Stupid Monkey is about putting the blinders on and focusing on the piece that will help the most.

The past 5 years I've spent a decent amount of time on tour ranges with tour coaches. From my experience what @iacas is saying is true, they don't know much about mechanics outside of their own priority pieces. Even then they can get pretty confused. One player thought to hit the ball high, their low point had to be behind the ball. He could hit it high if he wanted but he was completely wrong on how it happened. Another player has no idea why playing the ball more forward in his stance works, he just did what his instructor told him and the ball flies straighter, higher and farther, so he sticks with it. Another player knows a lot about the swing (very rare) and had to be trained to be a Stupid Monkey, it took almost a year.

I can think of other examples but the average player tends to overestimate a tour players swing mechanics knowledge.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 9iron

Calling someone a stupid monkey is a compliment? Not where I come from. And yes, I clicked the link, read the first paragraph…

And promptly stopped reading. Good job. :P

Not what I mean at all. I don't believe you will be teaching touir pros anytime soon, nor do I think you'd ever expect to teach tour pros.

As I said, I have taught Tour pros.

I appreciate you are coming at this from your own personal experiences, and I am not going to claim tour pros are all rocket scientists when that is clearly not the case. But your statement is so broad sweeping here as to include all tour players.

That's how generalizations work. I have not said, to my recollection, that ALL fit into this bucket absolutely, without exceptions. But the vast majority do, and that's how generalizations work.

Not all athletes are stereotypical dumb jocks, nor are all all "dumb jocks" so dumb they can't explain what they do, how they do it, or why they do it for the benefit of others.

You appear to be getting hung up on the word "stupid," and misunderstanding how it's used in the phrase "Stupid Monkey."

The history of that phrase has its own tale, but people here know it's A Good Thing™, and something to be earned and proud of if you do earn it.

I'm not calling PGA Tour pros dumb.

OK, I just went and read the entire article. I can see that Erik attempts to come off as endearing, but I think he goes about it in a poor way. Calling any group of people stupid or monkeys isn't very complimentary in my view, even if meant to be endearing.

It's not meant to be "endearing" at all. I think the first post fairly thoroughly explains everything.

This seems like a wildly inaccruate generalization and one that I would think most touring pros would take issue with.

Having talked with quite a few, and observed and given some lessons to them, I can't say I agree.

Most tour pros wouldn't make good instructors because they can't relate to the average duffer but when it comes to understanding the mechanics of their swing, and the golf swing in general, they are experts in everything that actually matters. It's not that their "stupid monkeys" or whatever superlative you call them, it's that most of them are brilliant when it comes to the swing and geniuses typically don't make good teachers. Imagine Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting trying to teach math to someone with a 95 IQ- it's not going to work.

Most PGA Tour players know their swing pretty well. That's about it. Learning about "golf swing theory" will not help them make their swing any better.

Again, being a Stupid Monkey is something most golfers should be striving for, it's a good thing. We see too many golfers seeking knowledge about the golf swing that leads them to trying to analyze their own swing where they find 10 things that are wrong. Every golfer can find 10 things that are "wrong" with their swing, being a Stupid Monkey is about putting the blinders on and focusing on the piece that will help the most.

The past 5 years I've spent a decent amount of time on tour ranges with tour coaches. From my experience what @iacas is saying is true, they don't know much about mechanics outside of their own priority pieces. Even then they can get pretty confused. One player thought to hit the ball high, their low point had to be behind the ball. He could hit it high if he wanted but he was completely wrong on how it happened. Another player has no idea why playing the ball more forward in his stance works, he just did what his instructor told him and the ball flies straighter, higher and farther, so he sticks with it. Another player knows a lot about the swing (very rare) and had to be trained to be a Stupid Monkey, it took almost a year.

I can think of other examples but the average player tends to overestimate a tour players swing mechanics knowledge.

QFT.

[Hammer 4]

I'd just like to say...I wish I had a Stupid Monkey badge. Due to the great instruction, and the explanation of how the golf swing works, i.e. the good, the bad, and the ugly. I have been able to figure out, after some time of course, what I'm doing wrong, o.k. make that the "things" I do wrong. One was, I caught myself flipping, I's keep a flat wrist, but would flip my hands at, or just before impact.

Been working on that the last 3 nights at the range, and am now hitting a rad longer, and more on target. Also due to Erik, Mike and others, I've fixed a couple of major flaws in my swing.....Does that qualify..?

[Mr. Desmond]

Brandel is on www.theticket.com

in an interview right now if you want to listen