2015 Waste Management Phoenix Open Discussion Thread

[newtogolf]

I'm calling bullshit on that one. He's withdrawn rarely, and when he has he's been injured. I don't believe he's ever withdrawn simply to avoid shooting a score.

That's fair, only Tiger knows why he WD but when you consider his limited schedule, his number of WD's is higher than most, certainly percentage wise.

Tiger Woods: Six in 297 starts

Phil Mickelson: Four in 492 starts, all since 2004. That includes his WD/protest for fans using cell phones at the 2012 Memorial.

Ernie Els: Two in 366 starts, with none since 2000.

Vijay Singh: Seven in 529 starts.

Fred Couples: Six in 607 starts, none since 2008.

Davis Love III: Nine in 687 starts,

Jim Furyk: One in 507 starts.

Zach Johnson: Two in 269 starts.

Adam Scott: One in 218 starts.

Rory McIlroy: One in 73.

David Toms: 13 in 556 starts.

Stewart Cink: One in 455 starts.

Matt Kuchar: Two in 306 starts.

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/03/does-tiger-woods-withdraw-at-an-unusually-high-rate-our-rund.html

[iacas]

That's fair, only Tiger knows why he WD but when you consider his limited schedule, his number of WD's is higher than most, certainly percentage wise.

Your post implies (strongly) that he was WDing to avoid shooting scores. Every time he's had an injury, per his claims. Do you dispute that? Ditch the innuendo - say what you mean.

Tiger's doing pretty well on the "WDs to wins ratio" list, btw… :)

[Golfingdad]

That's fair, only Tiger knows why he WD but when you consider his limited schedule, his number of WD's is higher than most, certainly percentage wise.

Tiger Woods: Six in 297 starts

Phil Mickelson: Four in 492 starts, all since 2004. That includes his WD/protest for fans using cell phones at the 2012 Memorial.

Ernie Els: Two in 366 starts, with none since 2000.

Vijay Singh: Seven in 529 starts.

Fred Couples: Six in 607 starts, none since 2008.

Davis Love III: Nine in 687 starts,

Jim Furyk: One in 507 starts.

Zach Johnson: Two in 269 starts.

Adam Scott: One in 218 starts.

Rory McIlroy: One in 73.

David Toms: 13 in 556 starts.

Stewart Cink: One in 455 starts.

Matt Kuchar: Two in 306 starts.

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/03/does-tiger-woods-withdraw-at-an-unusually-high-rate-our-rund.html

I can't remember every one of those, but certainly many of them are due to injury, and I'd tend to agree with Erik on this and give Tiger the benefit that they were all due to injury.  In fact, the only one on here that we know had nothing to do with injury was Rory's one at, I think, the Honda a couple of years ago?  He just hit a bad shot and walked off, remember that?

[newtogolf]

Your post implies (strongly) that he was WDing to avoid shooting scores. Every time he's had an injury, per his claims. Do you dispute that? Ditch the innuendo - say what you mean.

I think I was clear he has a high percentage of WD compared to other pro's.  I believe he might have played through the pain if he was scoring better in some instances when he chose to WD, but that's pure speculation.  We all remember the tournament he won with a "broken leg" so he's proven to be able to play through pain when he has to.

[iacas]

I think I was clear he has a high percentage of WD compared to other pro's.  I believe he might have played through the pain if he was scoring better in some instances when he chose to WD, but that's pure speculation.  We all remember the tournament he won with a "broken leg" so he's proven to be able to play through pain when he has to.

Leg pain is not back pain. His leg wasn't going to risk further damage. What was done was done there - not true of a back injury that was far more debilitating.

And… so what if Tiger has a higher percentage of WDs from injuries than some other pros? Some other pros WD at a higher rate.

You were clear in implying that he WDs to avoid shooting a score, not for legitimate reasons.

[Gunther]

No one is panicking. Everyone knows that the game has moved on and that Tiger in never going to regain his former greatness and has no chance of equalling Jack's record. But in a discussion about Tiger, you tend to have people talking about Tiger. No-one is saying golf is doomed, it's just a question of how long he can put up with scoring like an also ran. He will bow out gracefully if he does not contend in majors this year.

You're wrong on a couple fronts: 1. Many, many people are panicking about the thought of Tiger losing his mojo, let alone retirement. 2. Not many pro athletes bow out gracefully. Regardless the results this year, I highly doubt Tiger would bow out at the end of the year.

[Torres9]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I wonder if anyone else noticed that  ESPN said Tiger Woods led the field in driving distance. Is that true or a mistake? This is a crazy game if so...

Yes, it is true.

[Zeph]

I didn't expect much from Tiger this week.

He didn't play well at the Hero Challenge and he usually struggle after returning from longer periods without golf. Injuries, swing changes, short game changes. I don't doubt that he can be hitting it well in practice or on private courses, but coming back on the tour is always something else.

At this point, I don't see it as a big thing if it's a 75 or an 82. Margins and details can change the score a lot either way when you're playing as poorly as he did. A wayward drive on the wrong hole can easily end up in two lost shots, while on another hole can leave him in a spot where he can recover from. He's also clearly got short game issues at the moment, which are easier to fix, given that he doesn't get some kind of yips. He said he's been hitting thousands of chips, but apparently struggling with timings or something.

He's usually been able to get back in form after being gone for longer periods of time. The interesting part will be to see what happens this time, and if he even stays healthy. If he does stay healthy, will he get his swing in order? Changing coach again can prolong a potential return to form, but I don't know if he's making any changes to the swing or just tuning it here and there.

I can see him getting back on top if he remains injury free, but if he loses more years to injury, I wouldn't be surprised to see him put the clubs on the shelf. It must be terribly frustrating with all these injuries he's had the past years. It's been 17 months since his last decent performance on tour, where he finished 2nd in the Northwestern Mutual World Challenge.

Re the WD discussion above: I've never thought any of Tiger's WDs has been related to anything but injury or sickness. Bad back, toof issues, bad knee etc... A player struggling with injuries will often have more WDs than maybe the average. I've never seen Tiger WD from a tournament and thought "He's doing it just to avoid a bad score". At this point it even seems counter productive, since he seems to need more practice, more reps, more tournament experience.

[atb5079]

I give Tiger credit, in the past he'd have withdrawn rather than shoot a round in the 80's so at least he's maturing and accepting of the fact that he's no longer the dominant golfer on Tour.

It almost seems like he has chipping/pitching yips, he looks really uncomfortable around the green and seems to have zero touch or control of the club face.  I know he took time off to heal and rest but I'm shocked that a pro golfer could get that rusty in such a short period of time.

It will be interesting to see how he plays in his next tournament and if his poor performance today motivates him to improve or mark the start of a tailspin.

Thats why it is the yips. Its all in his head. A pro golfer and of his caliber taking time off is not going to return with rust so bad to shoot an 82 with chipping of a 15 handicapper. I mean some of those chips, I fully believe I could have hit better. Its all in his head. That is the yips for you. And Brandel claims the chipping yips never leave you. I'm not so sure about that, but it sure as hell seems scary.

[ChrisP]

Seems like every time Tiger plays of late, he has a bad week and Rory McIlroy dominates. Saw it at the British, saw it at Bridgestone, saw it at the PGA and now Dubai (even if it's not the same tourney he's entered in). It's as if Rory is trying to say "Hey, I'm the man now, not him." And the way he's playing, he is the man.

[billchao]

Thats why it is the yips. Its all in his head.

I don't quite agree with that. Sometimes I feel the term "yips" is overused. He's got a mechanical issue in his technique (too much leading edge) that he can't get away with good timing anymore. He's not going to fix that by getting more confidence; he's either going to have to work on getting the timing of that move back, or he needs to work on a different technique that's more forgiving.. It's basically the same issue as his putting. Remember when he seemed to lose his touch with the flat stick? He's always had a compensation in his stroke that he was good at doing because of the constant practice. When he stopped spending as much time on his putting, he stopped timing the move properly.

[atb5079]

I don't quite agree with that. Sometimes I feel the term "yips" is overused. He's got a mechanical issue in his technique (too much leading edge) that he can't get away with good timing anymore. He's not going to fix that by getting more confidence; he's either going to have to work on getting the timing of that move back, or he needs to work on a different technique that's more forgiving..

It's basically the same issue as his putting. Remember when he seemed to lose his touch with the flat stick? He's always had a compensation in his stroke that he was good at doing because of the constant practice. When he stopped spending as much time on his putting, he stopped timing the move properly.

I disagree but to each their own.

[ChrisP]

I don't quite agree with that. Sometimes I feel the term "yips" is overused. He's got a mechanical issue in his technique (too much leading edge) that he can't get away with good timing anymore. He's not going to fix that by getting more confidence; he's either going to have to work on getting the timing of that move back, or he needs to work on a different technique that's more forgiving..

It's basically the same issue as his putting. Remember when he seemed to lose his touch with the flat stick? He's always had a compensation in his stroke that he was good at doing because of the constant practice. When he stopped spending as much time on his putting, he stopped timing the move properly.

The question I have with his chipping is how much has he really worked on it in the last 6 months? I pray that the answer is not much because if he's been working extremely hard on his chipping game and this is the result, he might as well hang it up. I think the bottom line with Tiger is he just needs to put in the time. He needs to have that drive inside of him to put in the time. I'm just not sure he has that drive in him like he used to. I guess time will tell.

I remember we were having the same exact questions with Rory a year ago and then he went out and dumped Wozniaki, focused more on golf and now he's more better than ever.

[9iron]

He hit 50 good chips in the practice area before his round. His problem isn't physical, it's mental. Between the ears.

[newtogolf]

The question I have with his chipping is how much has he really worked on it in the last 6 months? I pray that the answer is not much because if he's been working extremely hard on his chipping game and this is the result, he might as well hang it up. I think the bottom line with Tiger is he just needs to put in the time. He needs to have that drive inside of him to put in the time. I'm just not sure he has that drive in him like he used to. I guess time will tell.

I remember we were having the same exact questions with Rory a year ago and then he went out and dumped Wozniaki, focused more on golf and now he's more better than ever.

The commonality between Tiger and Rory is both guys were dating highly competitive athletes with equally or more demanding schedules than their own.  I'm sure watching Lindsey ski and getting his tooth knocked out didn't help him work on his short game.

[ChrisP]

He hit 50 good chips in the practice area before his round. His problem isn't physical, it's mental. Between the ears.

Kinda scary it sounds like Seve Ballesteros in the past. I remember Seve when he lost his touch saying how he hit great chips in practice but couldn't hit them on the course. Mental game is tough to cure and it's ruined some great golfers such as Seve...such as Duval...such as Baker-Finch. Physical issues can sometimes be easier to come back from.

[Zeph]

I've seen Tiger look like a 10 handicapper when chipping, after breaks from golf before. I'll give him some time before I claim it's yips.

[mvmac]

I don't quite agree with that. Sometimes I feel the term "yips" is overused. He's got a mechanical issue in his technique (too much leading edge) that he can't get away with good timing anymore. He's not going to fix that by getting more confidence; he's either going to have to work on getting the timing of that move back, or he needs to work on a different technique that's more forgiving..

I'd say it's 75% technique and 25% mental. You don't see any good pitchers use the technique he's using. I think he "got away with it" for a time under Foley because he's so talented but those missed pitches/chips at the Hero Challenge were a shock to his system.