lost ball and dropping a ball question

[dkolo]

Sweet! I'm going to ask for more strokes next time I play.

As for "rub of the green", if my ball bounces of my partners head and the ball goes out of bounds and he dies, that wouldn't be bad luck? Give me some of what you're smoking.

Well, it'd be pretty bad luck for him, haha.

[iacas]

As for "rub of the green", if my ball bounces of my partners head and the ball goes out of bounds and he dies, that wouldn't be bad luck? Give me some of what you're smoking.

1. Multi-quote please. You're not new here.* 2. You seem to have completely missed the point of that part of my post. "Rub of the green" has a very specific definition and that definition is not "bad luck." * [CONTENTEMBED=/t/69379/new-to-the-sand-trap-little-things-members-expect-and-ask-of-fellow-members layout=inline]​[/CONTENTEMBED] It's fine, dude, you're just not a 5 handicap.

[turtleback]

Even under remote circumstances, like 'maybe the ball is under a leaf' and you can only see 3 leaves per fairway, you can hit a provisional.  It's a sneaky way to get a second 'practice' stroke with the driver.  Some may argue 'poor  sportsmanship' but within the rules, IMO.

It is not poor sportsmanship, it is cheating and not within any reasonable interpretation of the rules.

27-2a/3

Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

Q.In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?

A.No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play – see Decision 27-2a/2.

Remote circumstances do not constitute reasonable possibility.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangator

As for "rub of the green", if my ball bounces of my partners head and the ball goes out of bounds and he dies, that wouldn't be bad luck? Give me some of what you're smoking.

1. Multi-quote please. You're not new here.

2. You seem to have completely missed the point of that part of my post. "Rub of the green" has a very specific definition and that definition is not "bad luck."

In fact the one that David pointed out where you hit a tree and bounce back into the fairway is also a rub of the green.  And most would consider that quite good fortune.

[natureboy]

The USGA would tell you for handicap purposes, give yourself par plus any handicap strokes you would have received on that hole.  So if you are a 10 handicapper and the hole was the 9th handicapped hole, give yourself a bogey for the hole.  Of course the USGA would like you to play by the rules, but they do make some accommodations for an occasional hole not played under the rules.

An example given by the USGA, which is probably more common, is taking a mulligan on the tee box.

Another option would be to treat it as if you were posting a score in match play.  You can not find your ball and concede the hole.  Give yourself the score you would most likely have gotten if you would have finished the hole under the rules.....which means going back to the tee hitting 3.  As always, you would still need to consider your max equitable score when determining the final score for posting purposes.

Also, don't forget about ESC. When a player picks up or doesn't finish a hole,

and quote from above "Give yourself the score you would most likely have gotten if you would have finished the hole under the rules"

Suppose one of these players picked up his ball after being out of a hole to speed up play?

There is no limit to the number of holes on which you can adjust your score. Just scan your scorecard and locate any holes where your score (either actual or probable) exceeds the maximum num-ber you are allowed. Then reduce those higher hole scores to your maximum number and post your adjusted gross score for handicap purposes.

The USGA introduced a simple, straightforward, and easy-to-remember procedure to adjust scores under Equitable Stroke Control.

Equitable Stroke Control sets a maximum number that a player can post on any hole depending on the player's Course Handicap.

Helpful info.

What if you know your actual stroke average for that particular hole? Can you use that number, or do you have to use the method you describe? The 17th on my home course is the #1 handicap hole, but I actually average (20 rounds) about 1.3 strokes over par. With my handicap of 23, I'd be on 'snowman' using the other procedure. It's reasonable to accept penalty for not completing the hole, but if the latter procedure is the only acceptable way, it seems like there's still an incentive to walk back to the tee and ruin everyone's day.

General thread question:

What if you don't know there is a water hazard (new course or unfamilar section of course) until you get there, but you've already hit the provisional?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by natureboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

The USGA would tell you for handicap purposes, give yourself par plus any handicap strokes you would have received on that hole.  So if you are a 10 handicapper and the hole was the 9th handicapped hole, give yourself a bogey for the hole.  Of course the USGA would like you to play by the rules, but they do make some accommodations for an occasional hole not played under the rules.

An example given by the USGA, which is probably more common, is taking a mulligan on the tee box.

Another option would be to treat it as if you were posting a score in match play.  You can not find your ball and concede the hole.  Give yourself the score you would most likely have gotten if you would have finished the hole under the rules.....which means going back to the tee hitting 3.  As always, you would still need to consider your max equitable score when determining the final score for posting purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Club Rat

Also, don't forget about ESC. When a player picks up or doesn't finish a hole,

and quote from above "Give yourself the score you would most likely have gotten if you would have finished the hole under the rules"

Suppose one of these players picked up his ball after being out of a hole to speed up play?

There is no limit to the number of holes on which you can adjust your score. Just scan your scorecard and locate any holes where your score (either actual or probable) exceeds the maximum num-ber you are allowed. Then reduce those higher hole scores to your maximum number and post your adjusted gross score for handicap purposes.

The USGA introduced a simple, straightforward, and easy-to-remember procedure to adjust scores under Equitable Stroke Control.

Equitable Stroke Control sets a maximum number that a player can post on any hole depending on the player's Course Handicap.

Helpful info.

What if you know your actual stroke average for that particular hole? Can you use that number, or do you have to use the method you describe. The 17th on my home course is the #1 handicap hole, but I actually average about 1.3 strokes over par. With my handicap of 23, I'd be on 'snowman' using the other procedure.

It has nothing to do with stroke average.  ESC is strictly based on the cart that the USGA posts on their website.  If the chart says you get to take up to an 8, then that's what you get.

Quote:

General thread question:

What if you don't know there is a water hazard (new course or unfamilar section of course) until you get there, but you've already hit the provisional?

You can play a provisional ball in this situation.  If the situation is unknown, or if there is a possibility of the ball being lost outside of a hazard, then you may play a provisional ball.

I was playing a new (to me) course several years ago, and on one tee shot one of the guys I was playing with said that it might be OB.  I didn't believe him, because I had hit the drive exactly where I wanted to hit it.  When we got over the hill I found out he was right and I had misjudged how far it was to cut the dogleg.  If I had listened to him, I'd have played a provisional instead of having to fudge a 2 stroke penalty, and likely been playing from a better spot too.

[Dormie1360]

Helpful info.

What if you know your actual stroke average for that particular hole? Can you use that number, or do you have to use the method you describe? The 17th on my home course is the #1 handicap hole, but I actually average (20 rounds) about 1.3 strokes over par. With my handicap of 23, I'd be on 'snowman' using the other procedure. It's reasonable to accept penalty for not completing the hole, but if the latter procedure is the only acceptable way, it seems like there's still an incentive to walk back to the tee and ruin everyone's day.

General thread question:

What if you don't know there is a water hazard (new course or unfamilar section of course) until you get there, but you've already hit the provisional?

Remember, your handicap is based on your 10 best scores of your last 20, not your average.  So on the scores that your handicap uses there is a good chance you played the hole better than your stroke average.   With a 23, the highest you would have to post on any hole using the Par plus handicap stroke method is a double bogey.  What we are saying about ESC is this.  What ever procedure you use, ESC puts a max on the score that you can post.   As has been said the best advice is to play the holes correctly.

As far as your second question, you're ok.  Edit:  I see Rick is faster.

27-2a/2.5

Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard , that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 – see Rule 27-2c .

[jgreen85]

my club has a local rule for tournaments called "desert rule." We classify all desert areas as lateral hazards and the grass as the position of the stakes, so have the option to drop +1 stroke in the area where the ball last crossed the grass.

I also played in San Antonio and the starter informed me of their local rule treating their "desert" area as lateral hazards as well.

Safe to say, I don't have an official handicap?

[Lihu]

my club has a local rule for tournaments called "desert rule." We classify all desert areas as lateral hazards and the grass as the position of the stakes, so have the option to drop +1 stroke in the area where the ball last crossed the grass.

I also played in San Antonio and the starter informed me of their local rule treating their "desert" area as lateral hazards as well.

Safe to say, I don't have an official handicap?

Is this the local rule for the course in general or just something your club made up without any overseeing authority?

I know there are rattlesnakes in some of our desert courses, many treat them as OB or protected areas. No relief, and you can't play out of them.

[jgreen85]

Is this the local rule for the course in general or just something your club made up without any overseeing authority?

I know there are rattlesnakes in some of our desert courses, many treat them as OB or protected areas. No relief, and you can't play out of them.

I assume the course in San Antonio has an established local rule. I don't know, just reporting what I was told. "Local rule to treat 'desert' as lateral hazard."

No course I've been to in AZ has desert marked as OB. They don't allow/want you to drive cart through the desert areas, but no rule against playing out of them and I've done so quite often. Our club is a part of the Arizona Golf Association, which I assume is an overseeing authority. Not sure if they've gotten this rule approved or not. Either way, from early comments, it seems that this "local rule" should not be allowed.

[iacas]

Safe to say, I don't have an official handicap?

No, you don't.

Water hazards are clearly defined in the Rules of Golf. Areas that do not meet such standards are not water hazards and thus such a local rule is incorrect. Local Rules can only do certain things - you can't make Local Rules say whatever you want them to say.

[Tat14]

I assume the course in San Antonio has an established local rule. I don't know, just reporting what I was told. "Local rule to treat 'desert' as lateral hazard."

No course I've been to in AZ has desert marked as OB. They don't allow/want you to drive cart through the desert areas, but no rule against playing out of them and I've done so quite often. Our club is a part of the Arizona Golf Association, which I assume is an overseeing authority. Not sure if they've gotten this rule approved or not. Either way, from early comments, it seems that this "local rule" should not be allowed.

Can't speak to AZ, but some courses with desert in CA and NV have areas marked OB because of any human impact re: animals, birds, plants, etc. I think OB is the only viable option though.

I'm not surprised that a local rule exists for the sake of the men's league. We have fellas who claim winter rules (lift, clean, place) in July because the grass is burnt, hmm...

[Lihu]

Can't speak to AZ, but some courses with desert in CA and NV have areas marked OB because of any human impact re: animals, birds, plants, etc. I think OB is the only viable option though.

I'm not surprised that a local rule exists for the sake of the men's league. We have fellas who claim winter rules (lift, clean, place) in July because the grass is burnt, hmm...

This is more reasonable. I never play in an area that looks like the local scenery because of the impact on area and I don't want to deal with a snake/scorpion/spider bites, poison oak, Gila monsters, etc.

Yeah, I agree with your "hmm". Our local clubs follow the ROG, otherwise, they could get disqualified from any inter club tournaments.

[turtleback]

I assume the course in San Antonio has an established local rule. I don't know, just reporting what I was told. "Local rule to treat 'desert' as lateral hazard."

No course I've been to in AZ has desert marked as OB. They don't allow/want you to drive cart through the desert areas, but no rule against playing out of them and I've done so quite often. Our club is a part of the Arizona Golf Association, which I assume is an overseeing authority. Not sure if they've gotten this rule approved or not. Either way, from early comments, it seems that this "local rule" should not be allowed.

Well since that local rule is not among those "pre-approved" by the USGA all you have to do is ask them what their authorization is for the local rule, since that local rule would have to be approved by the USGA to be valid.  If they look at you like you are a little green man who just stepped out of a flying saucer then you know they are not serious about golf nor are they serious about the rules.  Despite common practice courses, clubs, leagues, etc, are not free to make up their own rules and then use the resulting invalid scores in ways that only valid scores may be used, i.e., handicaps.

Everyone has to decide for themselves, but personally I would avoid any golfing environment that shows such disregard for the rules of the game.  Because 99+% of the time, the rationalizations may abound but it is about writing down a smaller number.  I would rather write down a number that does not require a host of disclaimers about rules.

[DrvFrShow]

One local course: "USGA Rules govern all play unless modified by local rules" printed on scorecard.

1. Regarding golf balls lost within course boundary. Drop a ball within 2 club lengths of point of entry adding one stroke to score. (note that this in 99% of cases is woods - if your ball enters, you ain't finding it).

2. Take relief from paths and 150 yd stones on fairway side of the course.

Rule number 1 is to speed up play. I learned how to play this course, however, and that is to leave the driver in the bag and tee off with my 5 & 6 iron. I'm not good enough to play anything else there.

If you don't want to walk back to the tee or previous spot, take 2 strokes because it's a rules violation, and the penalty for playing the ball from the wrong place is 2 strokes.

[Rulesman]

If you don't want to walk back to the tee or previous spot, take 2 strokes because it's a rules violation, and the penalty for playing the ball from the wrong place is 2 strokes.

As the distance gained is likely to be long, it will a serious breach, resulting in DQ if not corrected.

[Asheville]

This happens frequently, not just here, but in most Rules forums. People come seeking approval for not playing by the Rules of Golf. They offer up all sorts of flimsy excuses and rationalizations in hopes of vindication. They love to hide behind "local rules" or cultural practice.

Guess what? Like-minded individuals will jump in with their own anecdotes about how they modify the Rules. If that's what sought, then there it is. However, if approval from players who do follow the Rules is the objective, I'm sorry, it'll never happen.

Finally, no one else really cares what you do ... follow the Rules or don't. And, those who do follow the Rules will not be persuaded to do otherwise.

[natureboy]

Remember, your handicap is based on your 10 best scores of your last 20, not your average.  So on the scores that your handicap uses there is a good chance you played the hole better than your stroke average.   With a 23, the highest you would have to post on any hole using the Par plus handicap stroke method is a double bogey.  What we are saying about ESC is this.  What ever procedure you use, ESC puts a max on the score that you can post.   As has been said the best advice is to play the holes correctly.

As far as your second question, you're ok.  Edit:  I see Rick is faster.

27-2a/2.5

Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 – see Rule 27-2c.

Error on my part, I believe. I don't use the handicap points much. Clarification then is that since I am over 18 I get strokes on every hole so 23/18 = 1.28 strokes per hole not to exceed 8 if I choose to pick up? Funny that works out to about my average.

Thanks to you and Rick for the provisional clarification. That's what I thought it would be without virtual certainty of the ball's or hazard's location.