Taking good balls from range buckets

[pumaAttack]

The ball that was left on the range was abandoned. At that point the range spent their time and money to retrieve it. It became theirs.

Ha, ok.

I spent time and money getting the range balls to drop out of the machine.

So that is mine now.   What is the difference?

So I just have to spend "time and money" to make an item mine?  Hahaha

I would love for a range owner to see me take a ProV1 and place it into my bag.  Then call the cops for the theft. How is the range going to prove that is their ball.  With a receipt?  No.  With the time and money it took to collect it... Yeah that is gonna hold up in court.

Listen, there is 100% no way that ball is the legal property of the range's because they can't prove they bought it.  It just as easily could have been in my pocket before I entered the range and dropped it accidentally into the bucket.

Call it theft if you want, but call the range owner a thief as well.  We are both just lucky enough for that item to come into our presence.  What makes their claim to the ball greater than my claim?

[Golfingdad]

Taking this thread on a slight tangent here.  I stumbled across this post yesterday while looking for something else and it reminded me of my last stint of jury duty:

Theft has nothing to do with the intent that the owner has for the use or sale of an item. I imagine that you, like me, have all sorts of stuff in your attic that you'll likely never sell....or, for that matter even use again. The fact that you wouldn't be "losing money'" if it were lost, doesn't give someone the right to take that stuff from us.

The gist of the case was this:  Man who makes his living off of collecting things we consider garbage and taking it to Mexico where they don't consider it garbage was on trial for theft.  He took some shelving units that were leaning up against the wall of the trash area of a commercial building.  He assumed them to be trash.  As I remember it, our jury instructions required us to attempt to decide his INTENT.  If he intended to steal them, i.e. he thought that they were of value to the company and not just trash, then he was guilty.  If not, then he was not guilty.  Me and one other guy were plenty convinced that he thought he was taking their trash although nobody else agreed - hung jury.

After the fact, we found out that a few weeks later they most certainly did throw those shelves in the trash.

Regardless, IMO, at least in this one unique case, I believe that the intent of the owners DOES have a little to do with whether or not a theft has occurred. :)

[14ledo81]

[QUOTE name="14ledo81" url="/t/84262/taking-good-balls-from-range-buckets/324#post_1197126"] The ball that was left on the range was abandoned. At that point the range spent their time and money to retrieve it. It became theirs.[/QUOTE] Ha, ok. I spent time and money getting the range balls to drop out of the machine.   So that is mine now.   What is the difference? So I just have to spend "time and money" to make an item mine?  Hahaha I would love for a range owner to see me take a ProV1 and place it into my bag.  Then call the cops for the theft. How is the range going to prove that is their ball.  With a receipt?  No.  With the time and money it took to collect it... Yeah that is gonna hold up in court.    Listen, there is 100% no way that ball is the legal property of the range's because they can't prove they bought it.  It just as easily could have been in my pocket before I entered the range and dropped it accidentally into the bucket. Call it theft if you want, but call the range owner a thief as well.  We are both just lucky enough for that item to come into our presence.  What makes their claim to the ball greater than my claim?

Really? The difference is the balls from the machine were not abandoned. They are in there for rent. Also, what does proof have to do with it? Do you feel any crime you can commit without proof is OK?

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

The only problem with the first quoted statement is I never said that.  I said that I do not pick them up.

I'm not following you here but it doesn't really matter anyway.  Topics dead.

Not quite, here it is 23 posts later. . .albeit including this one.

[pumaAttack]

Really?

The difference is the balls from the machine were not abandoned. They are in there for rent.

Also, what does proof have to do with it? Do you feel any crime you can commit without proof is OK?

Wow, you literally can not see the difference??

One ball they paid for.  That is theirs.

One ball they didn't pay for.  That is NOT theirs.

Is it the EXACT same abandoned ball.  It is not theirs to make money off of.

[Hardspoon]

Part of the problem with this thread might be that golf balls are just so damn cheap, so even when you take one, it doesn't feel like stealing...then it's easy to try to come up with arguments on why it's not.

("Feel isn't real" applies to more than just the golf swing)

True story: a couple years ago, I completely forgot that I had abandoned my bowling ball in a locker at the local bowling alley where I bowled in a league. I paid $30/year for the locker, but eventually just stopped paying once I quit the league.  I think they tried to contact me once, but I never even bothered to follow up (it was an extra, not worth much).

I'm sure that they took that ball and put it in their racks as a "house ball".  If someone came in and walked out with it, I'd sure consider that stealing, even though the alley never paid for the ball and doesn't have a sales receipt or other b.s. like that.

Seems like the same thing to me, other than the fact that golf balls are much cheaper - which doesn't matter when answering the question.

[Golfingdad]

Not quite, here it is 23 posts later. . .albeit including this one.

Yeah, lol.  (I was trying to create the death with that post and failed miserably.) ;)

P.S.  Just realized I've not voted in the poll ... I voted C obviously. :)

[14ledo81]

[QUOTE name="14ledo81" url="/t/84262/taking-good-balls-from-range-buckets/342#post_1197139"] Really? The difference is the balls from the machine were not abandoned. They are in there for rent. Also, what does proof have to do with it? Do you feel any crime you can commit without proof is OK?[/QUOTE] Wow, you literally can not see the difference?? One ball they paid for.  That is theirs. One ball they didn't pay for.  That is NOT theirs. Is it the EXACT same abandoned ball.  It is not theirs to make money off of.

You do not have to pay for something for it to become yours. I think I will go with the opinion of the two attorneys about who has ownership. Gotta go. Someone else's turn....

[No Mulligans]

I have a friend that only buys ProV1's and ProV1x's.  Like most, he puts found balls also into his bag which he also sometimes plays.

Would it be okay if I went into his bag and took the non ProV1's from his bag?  After all he didn't pay for them, he found them, and I found them in his bag.

Isn't that the same as taking the non-range balls from the range bucket?

[14ledo81]

I have a friend that only buys ProV1's and ProV1x's.  Like most, he puts found balls also into his bag which he also sometimes plays. Would it be okay if I went into his bag and took the non ProV1's from his bag?  After all he didn't pay for them, he found them, and I found them in his bag.

If he can't prove you took them, it must be all right...... Really am leaving now. Be back later though.... :)

[newtogolf]

Wow, you literally can not see the difference??

One ball they paid for.  That is theirs.

One ball they didn't pay for.  That is NOT theirs.

Is it the EXACT same abandoned ball.  It is not theirs to make money off of.

You're renting them all, so if you have an issue with proof of ownership you should return all the non-range balls from the bucket to the desk and ask them to provide you with range balls in their place.  Under no circumstances would you be entitled to take them for your own use.

[billchao]

Wow, you literally can not see the difference??

One ball they paid for.  That is theirs.

One ball they didn't pay for.  That is NOT theirs.

Is it the EXACT same abandoned ball.  It is not theirs to make money off of.

The problem is that your logic is flawed. Ownership of property is based on certain principles and is legally defined, which your argument does not account for, so either you don't understand the law or you just refuse to acknowledge that your position is wrong. It is not simply based on who purchased the original item.

I'm going to state this as clearly as I can to the best of my knowledge, hopefully @Mr. Desmond or @Duff McGee can corrrect me if I'm wrong:

A golf ball hit onto a driving range can be considered either lost property or abandoned property. In either case, property ownership is transferred to the first finder of the ball. In this case, it is the driving range, as they are the ones that picked it up. You cannot claim the ball that you find in your range bucket as your own because it now belongs to the driving range; it is in their possession, in their bucket, on their property, and they did not lose, misplace, or abandon it. In essence, taking it is theft. It does not matter if it doesn't match any other ball in the bucket.

BTW, if you wander onto a driving range and pick up a premium ball, it can still be considered theft, because you "found" the ball on private property, meaning you were trespassing. In that case, the only entity that can find the ball and claim ownership is the driving range. If the ball is found on public property, it's fair game.

In either case, the true owner of the ball can come back and claim ownership. Obviously this can be hard to prove, but if you have a unique way of marking your ball, you can probably prove it is yours if it matches others in your bag or something.

Either way, it's just a golf ball. Nobody is going to take you to court over it so this is all just academic discussion, but the range is perfectly within its rights to refuse service to you if they see you stealing from them, which is what you're doing if you pocket a ball from their bucket, no matter how you or anybody else wants to rationalize it.

[mdl]

I'm somewhat particular about what balls I use and can't remember finding one of the premium balls I'm interested in in a range bucket.  So I can't remember ever having actually taken a ball from the range bucket.  I'm in the camp where I'll save the non-range balls I find to hit with my driver just for a little ego boost cause it usually goes a bit further

But I voted take them because I can't see getting up in arms about taking the rare premium ball.  I get that it's not an identical situation to picking up a lost ball out on the course that's clearly not in play, but it seems close enough.  Lots of balls get sprayed into the range, the staff picks out most of the premium ones for themselves, lucky range-goers pick out the rest, and the non-range shag-level balls mostly are permanently donated to the course.  That seems pretty non-objectionable to me.

[pumaAttack]

How come driving ranges have signs that read:

"Theft of Range balls is punishable under law"

Why not just "Theft of Balls" like so many of you think it should be?

[pumaAttack]

Either way, it's just a golf ball. Nobody is going to take you to court over it so this is all just academic discussion, but the range is perfectly within its rights to refuse service to you if they see you stealing from them, which is what you're doing if you pocket a ball from their bucket, no matter how you or anybody else wants to rationalize it.

Sorry but you will never morally convince me that the poor driving range is being robbed when I take a ball that is not theirs in the first place.

I would never take a range ball and more often than not hit those non range balls back into the field.  But I will not agree it is their property, it is the golfers who lost the balls.

[Mr. Desmond]

How come driving ranges have signs that read:

"Theft of Range balls is punishable under law"

Why not just "Theft of Balls" like so many of you think it should be?

A range ball is anything in your bucket for which you have paid.

Why do you think it has to say "RANGE BALL" on the ball?

You are merely trying to find an excuse to steal ... a lot of people have taken a ball without thinking about it. You should have skipped the thread ... now you know. For some, that will not matter.

[billchao]

Sorry but you will never morally convince me that the poor driving range is being robbed when I take a ball that is not theirs in the first place.

I don't care about morally convincing you of anything. I disagree with your morals if you believe stealing is justified because you're taking it from a business that's making money off of something they didn't purchase. Would you take a cupcake from a school fundraiser just because the school didn't pay for it?

Legally, it is theft. The range acquired ownership when the true owner lost or abandoned their ball.

I would never take a range ball and more often than not hit those non range balls back into the field.  But I will not agree it is their property, it is the golfers who lost the balls.

As I mentioned, the true owner can come back at any time and reclaim ownership over their ball.

You don't want to see it as stealing from the range, fine. You're stealing from somebody else, not to mention making it harder for the true owner to come back and get his/her ball back because you've now relocated it (probably off the property).

At no time in this entire scenario are you entitled to the ball. You are NEVER the owner of the ball, whether you believe the driving range owns it or not.

[pumaAttack]

A range ball is anything in your bucket for which you have paid.

Why do you think it has to say "RANGE BALL" on the ball?

You are merely trying to find an excuse to steal ... a lot of people have taken a ball without thinking about it. You should have skipped the thread ... now you know. For some, that will not matter.

I think it has to say "Range Ball" because that is the property they paid for and therefore own.

If I have hit 10 balls accidentally into the driving range and see a ball that could be mine, but I can't prove it, is that stealing too??  Or does the driving range now own the ball in your eyes?