Solheim Cup Controversy: Who is more at fault?

[Gator Hazard]

I and couldn't disagree more.  If you can't win without playing mind games then you are plying the wrong game.  It's one thing in a Saturday match with your buddy, totally another in an actual competition.  Golf is supposed to be a game of honor, not a game of deception and trickery.  If that's what you like, play poker.

Allison said that she thought she heard someone say it was good.  That may have been someone in the gallery, something that none of us has ever had to deal with in a match.  If that was the case, then the ball should have been replaced and putted out.  If that was not the case then the hole stands.  The opponents walking as though they are leaving the green was a bush league stunt.

I agree, and that is why I like to play poker as well there is a place for things like that, and the golf course is not one of them.

Billiards is one of those middle ground gentleman's games where hustling is just accepted that it is around.

Got a few good stories at the poker table and the pool hall but they are totally off topic.  Point being that sometimes it is fun to do those things, especially to people who try and run games on you, but golf is not supposed to have that element to it.

[Big Lex]

Thinking about it more, I actually have changed my mind. While I still think many pros would have conceded the putt, or, when asked by the rules official, stated that the putt was intended to be conceded, Pettersen was unduly roasted for sticking by the rules. Many pros would do the same....certainly Seve and Azinger would have done as Pettersen did. And if they laid a trap for Lee or otherwise waited to see if she would pick up prematurely, there really isn't anything wrong with that, either. Lee was stupid and careless and this isn't a pee wee league where we make sure every kid is happy. If you are stupid enough to pick up a ball before you are sure the putt was conceded, then you lose the hole. I think Pettersen apologized because her agents told her to....I am sure that while in retrospect she may have regretted winning a hole on a rules technicality (especially when the putt really was a gimme which is almost always conceded in a spirit of goodwill), many players would have done the same. Is it hard nosed competition? Yes. Is it mean spirited or poor sportsmanship? No. I think the judgements have been a bit too harsh. My weekend games with friends and an international competition are two entirely different things n

[MrFlipper]

I and couldn't disagree more.  If you can't win without playing mind games then you are playing the wrong game.  It's one thing in a Saturday match with your buddy, totally another in an actual competition.  Golf is supposed to be a game of honor, not a game of deception and trickery.  If that's what you like, play poker.

Actually, in a casual Saturday match with a buddy if he just raked it away I would let it go. Big matches, like a club championship, no. So you are playing someone in the US Am and they pick up a putt because they "thought" you said it was good? Didn't look at you, didn't ask to be sure, just picked it up? And since you said nothing, there is no provision for replacing it, unless you lie and said you gave it. Which you didn't. And they are not in the wrong? The rules were absolutely followed, no other option if you follow the rules.

Now if you say that all would be okay if SP had stood 15 feet away to watch, I understand that. But the fact she stood at the edge of the green doesn't imply the putt was good. Hull moving doesn't imply the putt was good. It wasn't good. Are you saying Hull moved on purpose to deceive Lee, an experienced USGA match player?  How do you know that? And if you are saying that is why Lee picked it up, then you are also saying Lee lied about hearing a concession, unless you are going to argue that Lee would take an "implied" concession. And that constituted "deception" and "trickery"? Oh please, is Lee that weak?

The rules were followed. Clearly. You are a rules guy. Are you suggesting the rules be waived or otherwise adjusted depending on circumstance? The rules are there just for issues like this one. They are black and white in this case. Whine about them okay, but the rules are there for a reason. Following the rules is dishonorable?

Allison said that she thought she heard someone say it was good.  That may have been someone in the gallery, something that none of us has ever had to deal with in a match.  If that was the case, then the ball should have been replaced and putted out.  If that was not the case then the hole stands.  The opponents walking as though they are leaving the green was a bush league stunt.

Or Lee had a brain cramp and just picked it up. No one knows. But the Euros didn't give it, that's all that matters.

So you agree the rules were followed? And the only issue is the walking of Hull? Really? Because SP was standing at the side of the green, Hull was walking over to her.

SP is a hardass, I see that. But she did nothing wrong by the rules or by sportsmanship. And if I'm in a big deal match, and someone picks up a putt that I said nothing about, I'm calling them on it, no different than any other rules infraction.

The funny thing is, I've had to deal with way worse issues in matches than this. If Lee had just said I effed up and I won't do it again, and its all my fault, then this would have all blown over. It's not worth this level of hysteria. SP got thrown under the bus for nothing.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Yup, that's what it should be about, especially,  an event like Soldheim.

I played total of 4 match rounds in my golf career.   Not once did I see my opponent start walking to the next hole without conceding a short putt.   If they didn't concede, they watch it until I made/missed and moved to the next hole.   I've done the same.    Common courtesy.   No excuse for SP and her playing partner's behavior.   Lee learned a lesson, and the US team won.  All is good.

I agree with the sentiment, but lets not twist the facts.  There isn't any video of Petterson walking away.  Only Hull and the caddies.  Petterson deserved (still past tense, she sincerely apologized) the vitriol for her handling of the situation once Lee had picked up, but we have no evidence that she deserves any blame for walking away.

No twisting the fact was intended.   By bold above, I meant the whole situation (Hull walking away, SP objecting, ...).     If I were SP, I'd just kept walking away without objecting.   If I were Hull, I'd wait until Lee finishes her putt.   If I were Lee, I get a clear confirmation from Hull that the putt was conceded.   If I were any of them, I should be playing whole lot better than playing bogey golf.

[ghalfaire]

Allison said that she thought she heard someone say it was good.  That may have been someone in the gallery, something that none of us has ever had to deal with in a match.  If that was the case, then the ball should have been replaced and putted out.  If that was not the case then the hole stands.  The opponents walking as though they are leaving the green was a bush league stunt.

This is what I agree with.  Even if you believe everyone spoke the truth the Rules official should have told Allison to replace the ball and putt.  I don't for a second believe Allison Lee intended to pick up unless she thought the putt was conceded, I don't believe Hull or Pettersen intended to "trick" Lee into picking up the putt although walking off the green is poor etiquette if you have not conceded the putt.  But when you watch Hull walking off the green with her caddie I think most golfers would have thought the put was conceded.  So mistakes were made on both sides.  But as I said in the earlier post I think the rules official is the one that got it wrong and caused the problem.  He should have allowed Lee to replace the ball and putt out since she was confused by someone saying "that's good" and had reason to believe it was Hull since she was clearly walking off the green with her caddie.  Anyway it is too bad but I'd bet all four golfers in that foursome learned a lesson.  Hopefully "all's well that ends well" is in play here and no permanent damage in relations results from this incident.

[MrFlipper]

This is what I agree with.  Even if you believe everyone spoke the truth the Rules official should have told Allison to replace the ball and putt.  I don't for a second believe Allison Lee intended to pick up unless she thought the putt was conceded, I don't believe Hull or Pettersen intended to "trick" Lee into picking up the putt although walking off the green is poor etiquette if you have not conceded the putt.  But when you watch Hull walking off the green with her caddie I think most golfers would have thought the put was conceded.  So mistakes were made on both sides.  But as I said in the earlier post I think the rules official is the one that got it wrong and caused the problem.  He should have allowed Lee to replace the ball and putt out since she was confused by someone saying "that's good" and had reason to believe it was Hull since she was clearly walking off the green with her caddie.  Anyway it is too bad but I'd bet all four golfers in that foursome learned a lesson.  Hopefully "all's well that ends well" is in play here and no permanent damage in relations results from this incident.

By the Rules of Golf he cannot do that. Unless SP or Hull had said or done something to make Lee think they had given her the putt, even if they hadn't, that isn't allowed. The referee asked both Hull and SP and he said there was nothing that was done by them to make Lee think they had given her the putt. Lincicome didn't come out and say the putt was given. So it was over and done. Nothing was handled incorrectly, nothing could have been done differently by the referee.

Lee is not an idiot or a newbie to match play. I'm sure she thought she heard something, but she should have made sure it came from Hull or SP before she picked it up. It wasn't from Hull or SP. The referee's hands were tied. Nothing else he could do.

[jcjim]

I agree with the sentiment, but lets not twist the facts.  There isn't any video of Petterson walking away.  Only Hull and the caddies.  Petterson deserved (still past tense, she sincerely apologized) the vitriol for her handling of the situation once Lee had picked up, but we have no evidence that she deserves any blame for walking away.

Maybe there is no video but when you see petterson she is the first to  talk to the ref. the others are walking behind her.She was ahead of them what did she do run past them to get to the ref.

[billchao]

Maybe there is no video but when you see petterson she is the first to  talk to the ref. the others are walking behind her.She was ahead of them what did she do run past them to get to the ref.

From what I can tell, she just wasn't standing with Hull and the caddies. They walked in her direction but there is never any indication that she was moving off the green (or even that she was moving). By the time the camera makes it to her it just looks like she was standing there the whole time watching everything.

[RandallT]

By the Rules of Golf he cannot do that. Unless SP or Hull had said or done something to make Lee think they had given her the putt, even if they hadn't, that isn't allowed. The referee asked both Hull and SP and he said there was nothing that was done by them to make Lee think they had given her the putt. Lincicome didn't come out and say the putt was given. So it was over and done. Nothing was handled incorrectly, nothing could have been done differently by the referee.

Lee is not an idiot or a newbie to match play. I'm sure she thought she heard something, but she should have made sure it came from Hull or SP before she picked it up. It wasn't from Hull or SP. The referee's hands were tied. Nothing else he could do.

Yes, the ref was clear in his interview that he felt he had no choice. Strictly by the facts, no concession was given (after interviewing players/caddies), he was not able to let her replace it. If he had gone outside the rules to do something he felt was "right" or "fair," but not in accordance with the rules or prior decisions, can you imagine the uproar about an American ref (he appeared an American) making that call? I think this thread might be double or triple the current length.

[RFKFREAK]

I put this square on Lee.

This isn't her first rodeo as someone noted earlier (and put much more eloquently) and even if she hadn't done so before, she should have confirmed through a visual means of communication.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

This is what I agree with.  Even if you believe everyone spoke the truth the Rules official should have told Allison to replace the ball and putt.  I don't for a second believe Allison Lee intended to pick up unless she thought the putt was conceded, I don't believe Hull or Pettersen intended to "trick" Lee into picking up the putt although walking off the green is poor etiquette if you have not conceded the putt.  But when you watch Hull walking off the green with her caddie I think most golfers would have thought the put was conceded.  So mistakes were made on both sides.  But as I said in the earlier post I think the rules official is the one that got it wrong and caused the problem.  He should have allowed Lee to replace the ball and putt out since she was confused by someone saying "that's good" and had reason to believe it was Hull since she was clearly walking off the green with her caddie.  Anyway it is too bad but I'd bet all four golfers in that foursome learned a lesson.  Hopefully "all's well that ends well" is in play here and no permanent damage in relations results from this incident.

By the Rules of Golf he cannot do that. Unless SP or Hull had said or done something to make Lee think they had given her the putt, even if they hadn't, that isn't allowed. The referee asked both Hull and SP and he said there was nothing that was done by them to make Lee think they had given her the putt. Lincicome didn't come out and say the putt was given. So it was over and done. Nothing was handled incorrectly, nothing could have been done differently by the referee.

Lee is not an idiot or a newbie to match play. I'm sure she thought she heard something, but she should have made sure it came from Hull or SP before she picked it up. It wasn't from Hull or SP. The referee's hands were tied. Nothing else he could do.

Put yourself in her place.  You have a short putt that is a sure thing and you expect a concession.  You hear something that sounds like "That's good", then one opponent and both of their caddies turn and head off the green.  If you don't make the same assumption that the putt was conceded, then I think you are fibbing.  If someone in the gallery said it, I think that equity (treating like situations in the same manner) should apply the same as if she mistakenly heard an opponent say it.  In either case it's just a misunderstanding, not a deliberate attempt to get away with something.  With all of the stupid crap that fans say and do during a tournament, this seems a very likely possibility.

[MrFlipper]

Put yourself in her place.  You have a short putt that is a sure thing and you expect a concession.  You hear something that sounds like "That's good", then one opponent and both of their caddies turn and head off the green.  If you don't make the same assumption that the putt was conceded, then I think you are fibbing.  If someone in the gallery said it, I think that equity (treating like situations in the same manner) should apply the same as if she mistakenly heard an opponent say it.  In either case it's just a misunderstanding, not a deliberate attempt to get away with something.  With all of the stupid crap that fans say and do during a tournament, this seems a very likely possibility.

I'm going to assume by your comments that you have very little serious match play experience. Mine is only at the club and city level, but I have quite a bit of match play experience. Lee played in many many USGA Girls Junior, Women's Am, many other high level Women's amateur golf tournaments in match play I'm sure. She has been around the block, regardless of how young she is or how easily she cries.

As a player, you learn quickly to NEVER assume that you will receive a concession. If you get one, fine, but if you expect and plan on one you are crazy and inexperienced, because then you are ill prepared to make a short putt when required. And its required a lot, especially at the end of matches. The putt in question here was maybe 2 feet, under pressure that can be tough, certainly not a sure thing. Ask IK Kim or Dustin Johnson. I've been expected to putt similar short putts at the end of matches more times than I can count.

And if you are not completely sure that the concession was expressly given by your opponent, you ask. Period. If not sure, I have asked opponents if they gave me a putt, sometimes it was yes, sometimes no. If no, whatever, I'll putt it.

And this was team play, she could have asked Lincicome if the putt was given. She didn't do that either.

The rules don't make a distinction between deliberate acts and brain cramps (which I think this was). Lee was wrong. No fibbing on my part.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Put yourself in her place.  You have a short putt that is a sure thing and you expect a concession.  You hear something that sounds like "That's good", then one opponent and both of their caddies turn and head off the green.  If you don't make the same assumption that the putt was conceded, then I think you are fibbing.  If someone in the gallery said it, I think that equity (treating like situations in the same manner) should apply the same as if she mistakenly heard an opponent say it.  In either case it's just a misunderstanding, not a deliberate attempt to get away with something.  With all of the stupid crap that fans say and do during a tournament, this seems a very likely possibility.

I'm going to assume by your comments that you have very little serious match play experience. Mine is only at the club and city level, but I have quite a bit of match play experience. Lee played in many many USGA Girls Junior, Women's Am, many other high level Women's amateur golf tournaments in match play I'm sure. She has been around the block, regardless of how young she is or how easily she cries.

As a player, you learn quickly to NEVER assume that you will receive a concession. If you get one, fine, but if you expect and plan on one you are crazy and inexperienced, because then you are ill prepared to make a short putt when required. And its required a lot, especially at the end of matches. The putt in question here was maybe 2 feet, under pressure that can be tough, certainly not a sure thing. Ask IK Kim or Dustin Johnson. I've been expected to putt similar short putts at the end of matches more times than I can count.

And if you are not completely sure that the concession was expressly given by your opponent, you ask. Period. If not sure, I have asked opponents if they gave me a putt, sometimes it was yes, sometimes no. If no, whatever, I'll putt it.

And this was team play, she could have asked Lincicome if the putt was given. She didn't do that either.

The rules don't make a distinction between deliberate acts and brain cramps (which I think this was). Lee was wrong. No fibbing on my part.

Nah, I've only have 22 years of match experience, along with working as a rules official for the Colorado Golf Association.  In match play there is always room for gray in between the black and white.  You can even choose not call your opponent on a penalty you observe.  Match play essentially works as a gentlemen's agreement between the players.  This is why I'm as appalled as I am by the apparent acts of the Europeans to seemingly head off the green as if the hole is over, then take a pose of innocence when Lee believes the putt was conceded.  I don't care if the act was intended or not, it was still made and to then pretend that nothing happened is rather contemptible.

Look, I wasn't there, nor did I see the live action.  I don't have enough information to pass judgement on Lee.  If indeed she felt that she heard a concession then that should be taken into consideration in making a ruling.

[rkim291968]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

In match play there is always room for gray in between the black and white.  You can even choose not call your opponent on a penalty you observe.  Match play essentially works as a gentlemen's agreement between the players.  This is why I'm as appalled as I am by the apparent acts of the Europeans to seemingly head off the green as if the hole is over, then take a pose of innocence when Lee believes the putt was conceded.  I don't care if the act was intended or not, it was still made and to then pretend that nothing happened is rather contemptible.

+1

I voted for Lee in this poll.   But the Euro team's behavior in this particular instance for this type of event is not easily understandable.   A positive - SP did apologize.  Whether it was forced or voluntary, she knew enough to issue an apology.

[MrFlipper]

Nah, I've only have 22 years of match experience, along with working as a rules official for the Colorado Golf Association.  In match play there is always room for gray in between the black and white.  You can even choose not call your opponent on a penalty you observe.  Match play essentially works as a gentlemen's agreement between the players.  This is why I'm as appalled as I am by the apparent acts of the Europeans to seemingly head off the green as if the hole is over, then take a pose of innocence when Lee believes the putt was conceded.  I don't care if the act was intended or not, it was still made and to then pretend that nothing happened is rather contemptible.

Look, I wasn't there, nor did I see the live action.  I don't have enough information to pass judgement on Lee.  If indeed she felt that she heard a concession then that should be taken into consideration in making a ruling.

I assumed incorrectly, my apologies. Your expertise makes the position you take that much more confusing to me.

I understand that you can choose not to call your opponent on a rules violation. But in a team competition, with other matches and teammates involved, is that a realistic option here? Especially when the issue is so obvious to all watching? Is that what you would have done if you were in SP's position as a player, before being asked anything by the referee?

As I understand it, Pettersen was standing at the edge of the green. So the only movement was Hull walking over to SP, maybe bad form but not enough for Lee to justify a concession. The specific words or a specific motion needed to be made to concede the putt. That was not done. The referee made that ruling, based on his opinion that Hull and SP made no motion or statement to concede, and Lincicome said there wasn't anything either. Strictly by the rules.  Once the referee made his ruling, nothing could be changed. Do you disagree with the referee's decision? If so, what other choice was there?

Are you saying that when SP was asked by the referee if she gave the putt that she should have lied and said yes? As a player, would you have said that?

Where in the rules does a participant thinking they heard a concession, but not hearing one in actuality, have any bearing? Either it was conceded or not, there is no ambivalence, right?

If you were the referee in this case, would you have done differently? In what way?

And how does any of this, in your opinion, override the necessity of Lee to be absolutely sure the putt was given before she scooped it up?

I'm really curious what you think. I'm not in a bad mood or anything. Really

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Nah, I've only have 22 years of match experience, along with working as a rules official for the Colorado Golf Association.  In match play there is always room for gray in between the black and white.  You can even choose not call your opponent on a penalty you observe.  Match play essentially works as a gentlemen's agreement between the players.  This is why I'm as appalled as I am by the apparent acts of the Europeans to seemingly head off the green as if the hole is over, then take a pose of innocence when Lee believes the putt was conceded.  I don't care if the act was intended or not, it was still made and to then pretend that nothing happened is rather contemptible.

Look, I wasn't there, nor did I see the live action.  I don't have enough information to pass judgement on Lee.  If indeed she felt that she heard a concession then that should be taken into consideration in making a ruling.

I assumed incorrectly, my apologies. Your expertise makes the position you take that much more confusing to me.

I understand that you can choose not to call your opponent on a rules violation. But in a team competition, with other matches and teammates involved, is that a realistic option here? Especially when the issue is so obvious to all watching? Is that what you would have done if you were in SP's position as a player, before being asked anything by the referee?

As I understand it, Pettersen was standing at the edge of the green. So the only movement was Hull walking over to SP, maybe bad form but not enough for Lee to justify a concession. The specific words or a specific motion needed to be made to concede the putt. That was not done. The referee made that ruling, based on his opinion that Hull and SP made no motion or statement to concede, and Lincicome said there wasn't anything either. Strictly by the rules.  Once the referee made his ruling, nothing could be changed. Do you disagree with the referee's decision? If so, what other choice was there?

Are you saying that when SP was asked by the referee if she gave the putt that she should have lied and said yes? As a player, would you have said that?

Where in the rules does a participant thinking they heard a concession, but not hearing one in actuality, have any bearing? Either it was conceded or not, there is no ambivalence, right?

If you were the referee in this case, would you have done differently? In what way?

And how does any of this, in your opinion, override the necessity of Lee to be absolutely sure the putt was given before she scooped it up?

I'm really curious what you think. I'm not in a bad mood or anything. Really

Actually Hull and both of the Euro caddies took off the moment the first putt stopped rolling, which made it look like a migration off the green from what I saw on the video clip.  If in that context Lee also thought that she heard a concession, her action was not only understandable, but expected.

[MrFlipper]

Actually Hull and both of the Euro caddies took off the moment the first putt stopped rolling, which made it look like a migration off the green from what I saw on the video clip.  If in that context Lee also thought that she heard a concession, her action was not only understandable, but expected.

Okay. So you are the rules official with this group. What is your ruling?

[ghalfaire]

By the Rules of Golf he cannot do that. Unless SP or Hull had said or done something to make Lee think they had given her the putt, even if they hadn't, that isn't allowed. The referee asked both Hull and SP and he said there was nothing that was done by them to make Lee think they had given her the putt. Lincicome didn't come out and say the putt was given. So it was over and done. Nothing was handled incorrectly, nothing could have been done differently by the referee.

Lee is not an idiot or a newbie to match play. I'm sure she thought she heard something, but she should have made sure it came from Hull or SP before she picked it up. It wasn't from Hull or SP. The referee's hands were tied. Nothing else he could do.

I believe that neither CH or SP said they said nothing.  They said they had not conceded the putt but Hull said in a later interview they were discussing whether or not to concede the putt.  So if Lee thought she heard "it's good" then the official could have ruled she needed to replace the ball and put since the putt was not conceded.   But apparently SP and CH were considering conceding the putt verbally and confused Lee.

I don't want to make more of this than it is but I still believe everyone told the truth as they knew it and the official blew it.