Paris Terror Attacks

[turtleback]

On 11/17/2015, 2:13:09, Golfingdad said:

In regards to the topic of allowing/not allowing Syrian refugees come over, here are a couple of interesting pre WWII images from this article:

 

I personally find it incredibly offensive to try to draw any kind of parallel between Jewish refugees in the Hitler era and Muslim refugees now.

Unless somehow history missed the large scale terror operations being carried out by the Jews against the world.  A better comparison would be whether we should have supported accepting GERMAN refuges from GERMANY.  

[Valleygolfer]

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

US Forces attacking ISIS forces last night via high tech satellite focus on target and thermal imaging.. Vid purposely released for the world to give a peep in to the US forces capability.. possibly will be blocked soon. Graphic alert.

 

I honestly think we 'let' weapons get into the wrong hands just to have them kill each other or have an excuse to kill them...

[Ernest Jones]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

 

Not all Christians are white ;) 

 

No kidding, I believe that list starts with a guy named Jesus. ;-)

[GolfLug]

5 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

I honestly think we 'let' weapons get into the wrong hands just to have them kill each other or have an excuse to kill them...

I don't always discount a theory simply because I can't comprehend it.. but, well, I don't comprehend how or even why. I think unless thoroughly proven otherwise things are as simple they seem.

[Valleygolfer]

8 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

No kidding, I believe that list starts with a guy named Jesus. ;-)

Black Jesus. He has a television show....probably filmed in Canada...

[rkim291968]

12 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

There are plenty of Islamic nations in the area that could offer refuge to those whom hold to the "Prophet". Let them have them... but wait those Muslim nations don't want to... Why?

I am willing to allow refugee status to all Christians worldwide. We need them to restore our land to righteousness.

It's a war of cultures. Christianity produced Western Civilization (oh, yeah... none of you were required to study that in school even though most of you have reaped her benefit).

Islam has produced nothing but slavery and a death cult for her masses.

Christianity is a culture of life and hope for the common man.

Islam is a culture of death and fear, with nothing but oppression for all.

Study the Koran and the fruit thereof.

Study Christ and His Promise.

Choose.

I am neither a Christian nor a Muslim.  I worship God of Golf, GG for short.   Where should I go to continue my existence?   Florida?    Is that a country?

[Ernest Jones]

14 minutes ago, turtleback said:

I personally find it incredibly offensive to try to draw any kind of parallel between Jewish refugees in the Hitler era and Muslim refugees now.

Unless somehow history missed the large scale terror operations being carried out by the Jews against the world.  A better comparison would be whether we should have supported accepting GERMAN refuges from GERMANY.  

I would say that the comparison is quite valid. The Jewish refugees that the US refused to take were, in many cases, Germans. Just as a Jewish person who is born in Canada is Canadian despite their ethnicity. So this particular group of Germans (the Jewish ones), who were being persecuted, tortured and killed if they didn't get out of Germany bear a remarkable similarity to the group of Syrians who are being persecuted, tortured and killed if they don't get out of Syria.

Or, at least, that's my understanding of it.

[Golfingdad]

32 minutes ago, turtleback said:

I personally find it incredibly offensive to try to draw any kind of parallel between Jewish refugees in the Hitler era and Muslim refugees now.

Unless somehow history missed the large scale terror operations being carried out by the Jews against the world.  A better comparison would be whether we should have supported accepting GERMAN refuges from GERMANY.  

I find it incredibly offensive that you equate refugees with terrorists.

10 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

I would say that the comparison is quite valid. The Jewish refugees that the US refused to take were, in many cases, Germans. Just as a Jewish person who is born in Canada is Canadian despite their ethnicity. So this particular group of Germans (the Jewish ones), who were being persecuted, tortured and killed if they didn't get out of Germany bear a remarkable similarity to the group of Syrians who are being persecuted, tortured and killed if they don't get out of Syria.

Or, at least, that's my understanding of it.

Right.  They were German (and other European countries as well) Jews.  It's quite easy to see how a person in 1938 would say "don't bring those German Jewish refugees here because one of them might be a Nazi trying to sneak over here and kill us," just as some are saying now about the Syrian refugees.

[dkolo]

2 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Yes, see Westboro Baptist Church  ...

Speaking of the WBC, I came across this fascinating article about the daughter in that family who'd become more famous about her racist trolling than her dad, but recently had a change of heart. Long read, but interesting

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/23/conversion-via-twitter-westboro-baptist-church-megan-phelps-roper

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, RussUK said:

As always very good points well made. You are right, we should never forget the mistakes made, even those in recent conflicts. Thats what makes the current refugee/migrant crisis so difficult. its the whole 5th Columnist problem again, as soon as 1 refugee turns out to be a member of ISIS (as shown with Paris) it throws doubt those who are more than likely innocent.

By the way, i heard a description of our 2 countries i liked. It said the the UK is like the nerdy kid who hangs around with the popular sporty kid. I belive history shows that may be true my popular sporty friends!

Maybe true, but the UK invented the sports! Well, most of them!

[rkim291968]

15 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Maybe true, but the UK invented the sports! Well, most of them!

Some Chinese will dispute this claim.   I have a (nationalistic) Chinese friend who believe China invented just about everything, even soccer (oops, "football" to @RussUK).

I am impressed how quickly the French tracked down the suspects that led to the apartment.   That prevented more attacks, thank GOG.

[Lihu]

5 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

Some Chinese will dispute this claim.   I have a (nationalistic) Chinese friend who believe China invented just about everything, even soccer (oops, "football" to @RussUK).

I am impressed how quickly the French tracked down the suspects that led to the apartment.   That prevented more attacks, thank GOG.

Probably not a "Nationalist" since all of them are in Taiwan, but I have the same type of friends who even think the first man is from Yunnan.

[JonMA1]

20 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

There are plenty of Islamic nations in the area that could offer refuge to those whom hold to the "Prophet". Let them have them... but wait those Muslim nations don't want to... Why?

I am willing to allow refugee status to all Christians worldwide. We need them to restore our land to righteousness.

It's a war of cultures. Christianity produced Western Civilization (oh, yeah... none of you were required to study that in school even though most of you have reaped her benefit).

Islam has produced nothing but slavery and a death cult for her masses.

Christianity is a culture of life and hope for the common man.

Islam is a culture of death and fear, with nothing but oppression for all.

Study the Koran and the fruit thereof.

Study Christ and His Promise.

Choose.

Don't mean to go too far off-topic, but...

Those who blame (any) religion as the main cause of war are just delusional, IMO. Same with different cultures. Given the chance, there are Christians who would wipe out another religion and justify those actions with some warped interpretation of the Bible. That wouldn't make Christianity evil, just as it's not Islam that is to blame for the bloodshed in France and the Middle East.

Humans are, by nature, a species that goes to war. Doesn't matter who your profit is or even whether you have one. It's in all of us. Look how easy it is for us to want to bomb ISIS and just accept the collateral damage of innocent deaths as acceptable. I'm no exception.

As far as culture, all you have to do is look at recent history. In the 30's and 40's, genocide in Europe by Germany and the Soviet Union and on a smaller scale, the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia in the 90's. There was the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia during the late 70's. No different in Africa, North America, South America....

And speaking of North America, we (the US) have our own tainted past. Don't think we're immune from going down that road again - Christian or not.

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Don't mean to go too far off-topic, but...

Those who blame (any) religion as the main cause of war are just delusional, IMO. Same with different cultures. Given the chance, there are Christians who would wipe out another religion and justify those actions with some warped interpretation of the Bible. That wouldn't make Christianity evil, just as it's not Islam that is to blame for the bloodshed in France and the Middle East.

Humans are, by nature, a species that goes to war. Doesn't matter who your profit is or even whether you have one. It's in all of us. Look how easy it is for us to want to bomb ISIS and just accept the collateral damage of innocent deaths as acceptable. I'm no exception.

As far as culture, all you have to do is look at recent history. In the 30's and 40's, genocide in Europe by Germany and the Soviet Union and on a smaller scale, the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia in the 90's. There was the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia during the late 70's. No different in Africa, North America, South America....

And speaking of North America, we (the US) have our own tainted past. Don't think we're immune from going down that road again - Christian or not.

Excellent post.

[RandallT]

41 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Excellent post.

Yep, enjoyed that post. Look at atrocities humans have perpetrated on others through history. No culture is exempt from these demons that can possess us as a species. America is an amalgamation of many of those cultures, so the temptation lies within us. We're nothing special biologically and mentally speaking, so we need to be wary of evil here in the US just as other cultures do. Our constitution is a good protection against that, actually. It's a brilliant piece of work by brilliant minds (with its share of issues of course), but that's OT here.

Back on track, here's a Pew Survey

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/ft_15-11-17_isis_views/

Quote

Lastly, I think this kerfuffle over 10,000 refugees is a waste of time. The larger picture is how do we combat vile ideas that have gained traction on the planet- for one, radical Islam (or jihadism, as Hillary Clinton calls it, since she says it's not Islam- whatever). It's not wise for a president to be distracting from the larger struggle to hone in on this minor skirmish. Takes our eye off the ball.

To measure success, it's not whether or not you have a problem, but it's whether or not you have the same problem decades later. We have had the same problem of radical Islam's violence decade after decade.

As I see it now, the ideology that is most harmful to humanity developing in a positive direction is radical Islam, which will squelch freedom, oppress civilization by subjecting everyone to their brand of shariah law. Music, popular culture will be deadened. Gays killed. Women put back in the kitchen. Any apostate will be killed. It is truly vile and evil. Yet we have done almost nothing to reduce its appeal and reach. That's rather sad.

The 10,000 refugees are a tiny percentage of the total displaced in Syria. Maybe like 0.1% or something of the total? So that's humanitarian? Give me a break. Thousands upon thousands of refugees exist everywhere in the world and we take a tiny fraction of them. So America bathes itself in how virtuous we are if we take 10,000? Yes, we're good people, but let's not get carried away with ourselves- there's only so much we can do to protect people worldwide, so let's not think of ourselves as saints in that regard.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/11/we-have-enough-refugees-already-213376#pq=g4Oc7D

Quote

According to the World Bank, there were 2.5 million Afghan refugees in 2014; according to the office of refugee resettlement, in fiscal year 2014 we took 758 of them. There were 616,000 from South Sudan; we took 52 of them. There were 410,00 from the Central African Republic; we took 25 of them.

This whole issue of the close-minded Americans refusing to take these poor, poor Syrians is a distraction. Yes, let's take them, vet them best we can. Big deal. It's a drop in the bucket, and it doesn't make us incredibly virtuous, as some would have us think.

I'd be more swayed by an argument that "humanitarian" would've been to keep our military in the region to ensure stability, frankly. I wasn't a big fan of Iraq (I only supported it toward the end as their democracy was forming as I was reluctant to see how it could succeed), but it sickens me when the people who pulled out the troops to leave utter chaos in its wake now wag their fingers at those who refuse to bring to the US 0.1% of the refugees that pulling out the troops likely caused.

I actually support bringing in these 10,000. But it's not a big deal one way or the other. The big deal is combatting the ideology. We seem to be completely failing in that. Partly because we bicker about off-topic things (like settling of this tiny fraction of refugees).

[Lihu]

On 11/19/2015, 8:23:22, turtleback said:

I personally find it incredibly offensive to try to draw any kind of parallel between Jewish refugees in the Hitler era and Muslim refugees now.

Unless somehow history missed the large scale terror operations being carried out by the Jews against the world.  A better comparison would be whether we should have supported accepting GERMAN refuges from GERMANY.  

Most of the refugees from Germany were Jewish.

While it is true that there is a significant difference in the details, remember that Irgun Zionists committed acts of terror to get the British to buckle to their demands. And won. . .

The typical Middle Eastern Terrorist thinks that the west has no stomach for long term pain and suffering, and that if they continue to push in this manner against the west that the west will eventually give in to their demands which is basically a free Islamic economic region. It's true that we do not have a prolonged desire for pain and suffering, but I doubt that all of us would buckle either.

This is contrary to my political party's beliefs, but their ultimate desires seem somewhat reasonable. The main difference between what is happening now and what happened in the time of the founding of Israel is western dependence upon oil. This dependence has "forced" us to maintain a strong military and economic presence within the region. We support and create puppet leaders many of whom commit acts of violence against their own people. If the west is not as dependent upon oil in the extreme manner that we are currently accustomed, then we can release the grip we have over the region. They would have a chance to develop a strong industry rather than making and purchasing weapons in futile attempts to fight the puppet leaders and us off their lands.

Israel created an oasis state out of nothing, and did not depend upon a commodity like oil to fuel their economy. Instead, with the help of their faith and hard work, they industrialized the region based upon technology.

The rest of the middle east can also become a strong independent economic region, like Israel, only if we move out and they embrace technology and industrialization for more positive things.

In this manner, I do see some parallel, but not the same. . .

[newtogolf]

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:45:17, Ernest Jones said:

I would say that the comparison is quite valid. The Jewish refugees that the US refused to take were, in many cases, Germans. Just as a Jewish person who is born in Canada is Canadian despite their ethnicity. So this particular group of Germans (the Jewish ones), who were being persecuted, tortured and killed if they didn't get out of Germany bear a remarkable similarity to the group of Syrians who are being persecuted, tortured and killed if they don't get out of Syria.

Or, at least, that's my understanding of it.

I disagree, Nazi's were not known to be pretending to be Jewish refugees so they could infiltrate other countries and perform acts of terrorism within them.

Here's something else I don't understand.  Out of all the Muslims, we're told "only" 15% - 25% are radicalized, so why aren't the other 75% - 85% of the Muslims who supposedly want peace and harmony with the rest of the world dealing with the radicals?

[Golfingdad]

24 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I disagree, Nazi's were not known to be pretending to be Jewish refugees so they could infiltrate other countries and perform acts of terrorism within them.

Here's something else I don't understand.  Out of all the Muslims, we're told "only" 15% - 25% are radicalized, so why aren't the other 75% - 85% of the Muslims who supposedly want peace and harmony with the rest of the world dealing with the radicals?

Paris terrorists were neither Syrian nor refugees.  No refugees have committed terrorist acts in the US either.

Whats the basis for this level of fearmongering?