To Search or not to Search?

[Fourputt]

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

There's no earthly reason why somebody wouldn't call the next shot a provisional.  There's no downside. He saw it go into the trees and maybe even heard a clank but would've had no idea what happened next.  For all he knows, it ricocheted out and in between a couple of bunkers and into the hole for a one.  It would be idiotic NOT to call it a provisional.

Maybe the better question to ask should be "How would you feel about your opponent if you were the player that hit the two shots and he went and found your first one against your wishes?"

I know that I'd probably be pissed, but I'd also lose any respect I had for him as a player.  I'd also make sure that the group behind us knew that they were having to wait because he was such an ass.  

[SavvySwede]

8 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I know that I'd probably be pissed, but I'd also lose any respect I had for him as a player.  I'd also make sure that the group behind us knew that they were having to wait because he was such an ass.  

I don't think anyone is advocating for any sort of extensive search. If I'm walking down the hole look over my shoulder and see a ball off in the woods I'm going to make him play it. Are you saying I should avert my eyes and not even look in the ball's general direction?

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

I don't think anyone is advocating for any sort of extensive search. If I'm walking down the hole look over my shoulder and see a ball off in the woods I'm going to make him play it. Are you saying I should avert my eyes and not even look in the ball's general direction?

This is a little strawman-ish, IMO.  I believe the spirit of the question implied that you'd walk into the trees and actually search.

[mvmac]

I'd look for the ball even if it resulted in a worse outcome for me. The golfer hit it where he hit it, you don't know what the actual situation is until you take a look.

[SavvySwede]

32 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

This is a little strawman-ish, IMO.  I believe the spirit of the question implied that you'd walk into the trees and actually search.

I think favoring the tree line and not entering instead of taking a B-line to your ball is pretty much what everyone had in mind who answered yes. Maybe I'm wrong.

[RussUK]

Yes for both. Partly as its just good manners (plus im english and were are all apparently gentlemen!). I'd also do it because as myelf and my playing partners are Yorkshiremen and renowned for being "careful" with money the though of losing a ball without trying to find it is against our nature 

[Pete]

Guys c'mon.... I understand that it is within the rules to search against his wishes, but so is not reminding your opponent that he moved his ball out of your putting line on the green before he replaces it, and calling a penalty on him for it. Seriously not cool. This is NOT how golf should be played. 

Would you NOT search for his ball if he hadn't hit a provisional because his first ball is probably in a decent spot but he might not find it on his own within 5 minutes (for arguments sake it is hit into a large area of rough that has a decent chance of a shot to the green, but it's large enough that one person searching alone dramatically decreases the chances of finding it)?

[DrvFrShow]

In match play, if he calls it a provisional, we look for the ball. If he doesn't we don't look for the ball. It's that simple. If his ball is in real bad shape he might just pick up and give me the hole right there.

In stroke play, same deal. If my competitor calls provisional we look. If not, we don't look.

[MacDutch]

Funny that a lot think its uncool to search for the ball. The player is the one who makes the decision to hit a provisional. So he must accept what happens next within the rules. Even if he hits it in the hole, the first ball is the ball in play until both players together decide it is lost. If there is really something important at stake, I would search 2 minutes for the ball. If not, I would let it go.

It was the player who hit the bad shot, face the consequences. And one of the most important rules is that you play it as it lies, you don't get to choose between two options.

Edited March 2, 2016 by MacDutch

[Abu3baid]

14 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

Funny that a lot think its uncool to search for the ball. The player is the one who makes the decision to hit a provisional. So he must accept what happens next within the rules. Even if he hits it in the hole, the first ball is the ball in play until both players together decide it is lost. If there is really something important at stake, I would search 2 minutes for the ball. If not, I would let it go.

It was the player who hit the bad shot, face the consequences. And one of the most important rules is that you play it as it lies, you don't get to choose between two options.

That's a very important point!!  I agree.

[pganapathy]

I voted that I wouldn't look and by that I mean that I wouldn't do an in-depth search in the likely place where his ball is.  Would I just take a glance in the beginning of the woods as I walked past.  If I were to see a ball, or something that looked like a ball I would definitely check it out and tell him about it.  You may well end up finding someone else's ball so he may still get his wish of playing his second ball, but I wouldn't go out of my way to search deep in the woods.  Yes, he will get a bogey in OP case but I am okay with his penalty of stroke and distance and would consider that I have protected the field.

I would also assume that if you were to find his ball, and it was in a horrid position, all he would do is take stroke and distance and hit again.  In that case, assuming he hits the green he would get a 5 at worst (2 putt assumption), or could do as well as a 3 by holing the second tee shot.  I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him play his second ball

[DaveP043]

I'd walk along the tree line and give it a passing look, in either situation, but I'm not going to spend any substantial time searching.  Its simple for me, the ball is in play, and I'll look for a ball in play.  As mentioned before, he chose to have the original ball remain in play, he has to accept all possible results.  Sure, in his shoes I'd avoid looking, and would probably tell my opponent/FC that there's no need to search, but I hope I wouldn't resent them doing something that's completely within the rules.  As for whether its "gamesmanship" to look, I'd say its a similar level of "gamesmanship" for him to tell me NOT to look for a ball that's still in play.  

As to @Pete's point about returning a ball to the right spot on the green, I never knowingly allow my opponent to break the rules in order to win a hole.  Marked ball, teeing in front of the markers, illegal drop, any of that.  Searching for a ball that is in play just isn't the same thing.

[newtogolf]

I've had it done to me during the semi-final round of my club championship, that's golf, I admittedly was annoyed at the time because my provisional was in the middle of the fairway and my 1st ball ended up with a blind shot to the green having to go over trees.  

It worked out for me, I hit a perfect shot over the trees and landed on the front of the green, two putted for par.  I thanked my opponent for finding my ball which put him on tilt for the rest of the round and I won the match.  

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I'm really surprised at the number of members here who only believe in "win at all costs", regardless of the ill will that such a decision is likely to cause.  Do none of you have any respect for the players you are competing against?  Or are you so lacking in confidence in your own abilities that you have to resort of this sort of underhandedness to be competitive?  Anyway you look at it, it's a pretty sad statement about the game today.

Nobody's saying what you have said there.

9 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

There's no earthly reason why somebody wouldn't call the next shot a provisional.  There's no downside. He saw it go into the trees and maybe even heard a clank but would've had no idea what happened next.  For all he knows, it ricocheted out and in between a couple of bunkers and into the hole for a one.  It would be idiotic NOT to call it a provisional.

Maybe the better question to ask should be "How would you feel about your opponent if you were the player that hit the two shots and he went and found your first one against your wishes?"

I would say "darn." At the end of the day, I hit my ball there, and must accept the consequences.

To do otherwise is to basically ask for someone to look the other way so you're not punished for your actions.

And I'm just arguing the position for discussion. Truth still be told I'd decide in the moment and I lean still only very slightly in that direction overall.

9 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I know that I'd probably be pissed, but I'd also lose any respect I had for him as a player.  I'd also make sure that the group behind us knew that they were having to wait because he was such an ass.  

And if I were your opponent I'd have similar feelings toward you for getting so pissed off because someone found YOUR golf ball.

Tell me, Rick, why does 27/13 exist if the rules makers thought it "ass"-like to have an opponent not play his actual ball?

8 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

I think favoring the tree line and not entering instead of taking a B-line to your ball is pretty much what everyone had in mind who answered yes. Maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah. I'm not going far out of my way.  If my ball is to the left and the next tee is to the left and his ball is somewhere to the right, I probably won't even look at all as that is pretty far out of my way. 

18 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I've had it done to me during the semi-final round of my club championship, that's golf, I admittedly was annoyed at the time because my provisional was in the middle of the fairway and my 1st ball ended up with a blind shot to the green having to go over trees.  

It worked out for me, I hit a perfect shot over the trees and landed on the front of the green, two putted for par.  I thanked my opponent for finding my ball which put him on tilt for the rest of the round and I won the match.  

Right. In looking for his ball you may find it in a good place. Nobody seems to be saying that they're going to rummage around and hope to find the ball in a terrible terrible situation.

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, MacDutch said:

 

It was the player who hit the bad shot, face the consequences. And one of the most important rules is that you play it as it lies, you don't get to choose between two options.

This is an incorrect statement.  The rules don't allow a player to choose between two balls in play.  There are many occasions where he has options as to what procedure to follow.  

This is a case where he is making a choice between searching and not searching, and is simply asking his opponent to respect his decision.

[Fourputt]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nobody's saying what you have said there.

I would say "darn." At the end of the day, I hit my ball there, and must accept the consequences.

To do otherwise is to basically ask for someone to look the other way so you're not punished for your actions.

And I'm just arguing the position for discussion. Truth still be told I'd decide in the moment and I lean still only very slightly in that direction overall.

And if I were your opponent I'd have similar feelings toward you for getting so pissed off because someone found YOUR golf ball.

Tell me, Rick, why does 27/13 exist if the rules makers thought it "ass"-like to have an opponent not play his actual ball?

Yeah. I'm not going far out of my way.  If my ball is to the left and the next tee is to the left and his ball is somewhere to the right, I probably won't even look at all as that is pretty far out of my way. 

Right. In looking for his ball you may find it in a good place. Nobody seems to be saying that they're going to rummage around and hope to find the ball in a terrible terrible situation.

I'm making essentially the same point that you are.  I'm assuming that we have arrived at the point where his ball disappeared and it isn't immediately visible, and it doesn't look as if it is likely to be found, or if found to be playable, so it's at that point that he chooses to play on with his provisional ball.  

If I'm away, I not going to be an ass (yes that's what I call it) and force him to stand around and watch for 5 minutes while I search for his ball by myself just to be a prick.  I call that undue delay - maybe not in a penalty sense, but still quite unnecessary.  If his provisional ball is away, then all he has to to do play a stroke before his former friend finds his original ball, and then it's moot.

[Golfingdad]

I don't understand the "he must accept the consequences of his actions" argument.  Nobody is suggesting otherwise.

I can safely guarantee that even without polling them that every "no" voter in this thread knows that there is nothing in the rules against looking.  We're arguing against the politeness (for lack of a better word) of it.

Also worth mentioning; @newtogolf's opponent who found his ball against his wishes also had to accept the consequences of his actions.  So did Suzann Petersen.

Karma, being polite, the golden rule, whatever you want to call it, this stuff matters to some.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

This is a case where he is making a choice between searching and not searching, and is simply asking his opponent to respect his decision.

Technically speaking, it's not his right to make a choice. Certainly not in match play when he can't play out of order. Yes, you're probably a jerk if you wander off and search for his ball - but maybe he's done the same thing to you twice already? But he doesn't have that right to make a choice.

9 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I'm making essentially the same point that you are.  I'm assuming that we have arrived at the point where his ball disappeared and it isn't immediately visible, and it doesn't look as if it is likely to be found, or if found to be playable, so it's at that point that he chooses to play on with his provisional ball.

Why assume it? Even if he is in a mildly bad spot he could still chip it near the green and chip it in.

What if his provisional is in a bunker? Or he has a really tricky putt? At what point are you doing the right thing - for you or for the world or for karma's sake - and how do you make sweeping generalizations about what an "ass" other people are for a scenario that you have in your head which may be different than the one they're envisioning? Particularly, again, when nobody else has said they're going to go rooting around looking under rocks and leaves for their golf ball?

9 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

If I'm away, I not going to be an ass (yes that's what I call it) and force him to stand around and watch for 5 minutes while I search for his ball by myself just to be a prick.

There you go again. Nobody is saying that, are they? And yet the name-calling continues. Rick, seriously, you're calling other members asses and pricks. Enough.

9 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I call that undue delay - maybe not in a penalty sense, but still quite unnecessary.

It's not only not unnecessary, it's not at all "undue delay." This is the Rules of Golf forum and you have harped on others more than probably anyone about using the words in the Rules properly, so I encourage you to do so here.

9 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

If his provisional ball is away, then all he has to to do play a stroke before his former friend finds his original ball, and then it's moot.

He can't necessarily play a stroke if it's match play.

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

Karma, being polite, the golden rule, whatever you want to call it, this stuff matters to some.

Some don't view it as impolite.

If I quickly look for your ball while walking to set my bag down or go toward my ball, and find it sitting in a good spot, is that impolite?

By the Rules of Golf, an opponent is not only entitled to look for it, but the first guy has to identify his golf ball or he's DQed. The Rules of Golf take care of a lot of etiquette type things - you can be DQed for making noises while someone else is playing, for example - and yet they're completely in favor of the guy looking and forcing the player to play his ball so long as it's neither lost nor OB. They're clear that THOSE times are the only times when a provisional automatically becomes the ball in play.

So, while again my own personal take is that if he doesn't care, I don't care very much except in the case where I see a ball in a good spot that may be his (because to ignore that is to be deceitful and dishonest if it could help the guy), and I'm mostly just arguing the point for the sake of discussion.

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And were this done to me, I wouldn't think anything of the guy. He found my ball. I am still the dummy that hit it there.