Muirfield Out of Open Rota, Denies Women Membership

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Coronagolfman said:

Issue at Muirfield sounds very much like the situation the PGA tour put forth to Augusta regarding a possible boycott of the Masters by PGA tour members if the club did not meet their membership policy standards…

I think you're overstating that. I don't think it ever got anywhere close to that.

Martha Burk was 2002 I think?

[BallStriker]

Ahh...Martha Burke.....always makes me think about this picture....

 

 

[newtogolf]

A few things seem to be lost in this quest for political correctness

1. As Erik stated, private clubs discriminate in their membership acceptance all the time.  They may not think you're financially or socially worthy of becoming a member or they just don't like the way you look (non racial).  Many clubs also have free reign to vote out members if they no longer are assets to the club.  We don't know anything about Muirfield but they might have done a cost analysis that factored in the costs and disruptions to the club to add amenities for women against the projected number of female members and decided it wasn't feasible.  
    
2. Why would someone want to be a member of an organization where they are clearly not wanted beyond the 15 minutes of fame they'd receive.  

Muirfield voted to not admit women, they will be punished by the R&A and taken out of the Open rotation.  They can decide in the future whether they stand by their no women members policy or not.  

[drmevo]

1 hour ago, 14ledo81 said:

Really?

I thought we were discussing private organizations and if the have the right to "discriminate".

Again, I'm not sure that's actually what's being debated.  Of course they have the right to discriminate - no one is saying otherwise that I can find.  The question is, why would they, and that is something we'll probably never know for sure as others have pointed out.  

That said, I'd have a hard time believing it's something like cost or not wanting to build women's amenities.  What amenities would they not already have?  They allow women to play as guests - do people really think they make them change their shoes in the parking lot and use the men's bathroom while they are on the property? 

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

 

I've got to agree with @drmevo here.  I haven't read a single post here that says the Honourable Company made the right decision, I think most have said they would have voted to allow women as members.  However, many of us have defended the HC's right to make that decision.  As I tell many people who disagree with me, I respect your right to be wrong.

Thanks @DaveP043.  I think you and @Golfingdad made similar points to mine at the beginning of the thread but they mostly fell on deaf ears.

[turtleback]

 

22 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

Of course the men in here are blind to the discrimination of woman.  Not shocking. 

The facts are that woman are at a disadvantage for many jobs and social opportunities. 

 

Here is something that really IS a BIASED statement.  With "The men here are . . . ".  he dehumanized men into some kind of gender uniformity, where all of the men are assumed to have certain characteristics.  It is almost the very definition of  bias - assuming certain characteristics based solely on the gender of the person.  And then demanding ACTION!!  Scratch a SJW and just below the surface is a nascent fascist.

The fact is that while women are at a significant disadvantage for some things, it is also a fact that men are at a significant disadvantage for some things.  It is called life.

[turtleback]

2 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

Really?

I thought we were discussing private organizations and if the have the right to "discriminate".

I'm certainly not the first to use a different private organization as an example. (Can't remember, think someone else even mentioned KKK...)

And you didn't notice the inflammatory nature of putting KKK as some kind of analog to Muirfield???

[DrvFrShow]

[Jeremie Boop]

Elites keeping out other elites, somehow it's just hard for me to care too much about it.

[14ledo81]

47 minutes ago, turtleback said:

And you didn't notice the inflammatory nature of putting KKK as some kind of analog to Muirfield???

Look back. I was just responding to some "inflammatory" comments.

[ScouseJohnny]

To be fair, it looks as though Muirfield has evolved in recent decades.

In the 1980s it excluded women and also, apparently, Jewish men: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/21/muirfield-banned-me-for-being-jewish-claims-lord-grade/

In 2016 it has chosen just to continue its exclusion of women from its membership.

The HCEG has clearly evolved massively during this 30 years of rapid progress...

Edited May 22, 2016 by ScouseJohnny

[Aguirre]

It may have been pointed out (I haven't read every page), but there's a distinct difference to me between not having women members (as Augusta National once did) and refusing to invite any women as a rule.  If I were running the R&A, USGA, or PGA, the latter wouldn't wouldn't be acceptable.  And I'd strongly encourage those courses in the former category to, you know, accept a couple of women please.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, drmevo said:

That said, I'd have a hard time believing it's something like cost or not wanting to build women's amenities.  What amenities would they not already have?  They allow women to play as guests - do people really think they make them change their shoes in the parking lot and use the men's bathroom while they are on the property? 

If you occasionally expect four or five women to play your course, you can have a small locker room and a single restroom. This pales in comparison to the amenities needed - including perhaps a women's lounge and/or private grill room as many guys have - to expecting 20+ regular female players each wanting their own locker, plenty of restrooms, etc.

[ScouseJohnny]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

If you occasionally expect four or five women to play your course, you can have a small locker room and a single restroom. This pales in comparison to the amenities needed - including perhaps a women's lounge and/or private grill room as many guys have - to expecting 20+ regular female players each wanting their own locker, plenty of restrooms, etc.

Uh?

I've been a member at a couple of (actually, fairly modest) private courses back home in the UK where, incredibly, women members were not only accepted but welcomed. Those clubs didn't appear to be bankrupted by building a separate block containing lockers / showers / lavatories for the women golfers. It's the kind of thing any business in the recreational sector has to budget for - every such business from golf clubs through to camp sites. Those little clubs managed to make such accommodations without any obvious difficulty, yet this is beyond the means of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers?

Quote

private grill room

Jesus Christ on a f'ing bike. Who on earth needs a private (gender specific?) "grill room?" It's just a restaurant for God's sake. These days, I've heard, they apparently let women in restaurants all the time, would you believe, sometimes unaccompanied by men? Incredible, I know, but true. If you're a man, and the prospect of looking at women in a restaurant's "grill room" offends you as you chomp down on your mixed grill, then go to either: a) Saudi Arabia (although you may find the sausages and black pudding to be in short supply); or b) select bars in Manchester's Canal Street, where you'll find the clientele is pretty much entirely comprised of your own gender, and eat your dinner there.

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by ScouseJohnny

[Jeremie Boop]

11 minutes ago, ScouseJohnny said:

Uh?

I've been a member at a couple of (actually, fairly modest) private courses back home in the UK where, incredibly, women members were not only accepted but welcomed. Those clubs didn't appear to be bankrupted by building a separate block containing lockers / showers / lavatories for the women golfers. It's the kind of thing any business in the recreational sector has to budget for - every such business from golf clubs through to camp sites. Those little clubs managed to make such accommodations without any obvious difficulty, yet this is beyond the means of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers?

I think you are underestimating the cost to retrofit additional accommodations into an existing historical building while maintaining the look and feel of the original structure trying to use the same or similar materials. I'm not at all sure what the clubhouse looks like or how it's built but it could easily cost multiple millions of dollars to do this. Again, I believe they should have voted to allow women members, but that doesn't negate the possible actual financial burden that would come from doing so. Do you think that what some smaller club was able to do is anywhere near the same as it would be for Muirfield? 

[iacas]

32 minutes ago, ScouseJohnny said:

I've been a member at a couple of (actually, fairly modest) private courses back home in the UK where, incredibly, women members were not only accepted but welcomed. Those clubs didn't appear to be bankrupted by building a separate block containing lockers / showers / lavatories for the women golfers.

<sarcasm>Oh, well then clearly you know the situation at every club and whether they wish to pay for the thing.</sarcasm>

Maybe it's not even financial. Maybe they don't want to shrink the men's locker room to make the space for a larger women's locker room.

You don't know.

32 minutes ago, ScouseJohnny said:

Jesus Christ on a f'ing bike. Who on earth needs a private (gender specific?) "grill room?"

Seriously? A ton of older clubs here have a private grill room for each locker room. I've been to a few in Pittsburgh. Old school clubs with male and female members. The women, I've heard, have extra luxurious bathrooms with an on-staff masseuse or something. The guys use their space to have an extra grill room/card room/library thing with a small wait staff.

So yeah… it happens. I could name four clubs with a grill room accessible off the men's locker room. Each of those clubs maintains a main restaurant and grill room, too.

32 minutes ago, ScouseJohnny said:

Incredible, I know, but true. If you're a man, and the prospect of looking at women in a restaurant's "grill room" offends you as you chomp down on your mixed grill

Assume much?  Sheesh. Chill out. They exist. Maybe the men want to smoke cigars and play cards with their buddies and curse and watch sports and yell a little.

[Aguirre]

Well, that's generational.  The women I know will curse with the best of the men.  Sports and smoking cigars, not as much.  And that's good.  I need balance or I'll do nothing but drink, curse, and watch sports.

[boogielicious]

16 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

Look back. I was just responding to some "inflammatory" comments.

It is best to ignore the other inflammatory comments. That is how threads spiral out of control. 

[ScouseJohnny]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

<sarcasm>Oh, well then clearly you know the situation at every club and whether they wish to pay for the thing.</sarcasm>

Maybe it's not even financial. Maybe they don't want to shrink the men's locker room to make the space for a larger women's locker room.

You don't know.

 

You're quite right, I don't know. I am but a humble college professor, and my salary (plus, I suspect, my general discomfort when in the presence of the seriously rich) precludes me from joining upscale American country clubs, or indeed, exclusive golf clubs back home in the UK.

In the absence of "not knowing," though, it is interesting to compare like with like. I grew up a stone's throw from Royal Liverpool (although I played the municipal course down the road from it)! Royal Liverpool appears to have been able to sympathetically renovate its clubhouse to accommodate modern golfers: http://www.royal-liverpool-golf.com/The+Clubhouse/ The structure is of a comparative age to Muirfield's clubhouse (late 19th century), so, apparently, the problem is not insurmountable.
 

And I'm not sure if they're thumbing their noses at the dinosaurs at Muirfield, but it was interesting to see this highlighted addendum to their membership page at their website:

Quote

At present we are particularly interested in encouraging applications for our ladies’ section.  We encourage ladies playing golf at all levels and have an active and inclusive social agenda.

Source: http://www.royal-liverpool-golf.com/Membership/
 

Quote

 

Seriously? A ton of older clubs here have a private grill room for each locker room. I've been to a few in Pittsburgh. Old school clubs with male and female members. The women, I've heard, have extra luxurious bathrooms with an on-staff masseuse or something. The guys use their space to have an extra grill room/card room/library thing with a small wait staff.

So yeah… it happens. I could name four clubs with a grill room accessible off the men's locker room. Each of those clubs maintains a main restaurant and grill room, too.

Assume much?  Sheesh. Chill out. They exist. Maybe the men want to smoke cigars and play cards with their buddies and curse and watch sports and yell a little.

 

I have never seen anything like that in the UK, even at the few upscale clubs I have played (such as Leicestershire). I am thinking the gender-specific "grill room" is a feature unique to American country club golf.

Edited May 23, 2016 by ScouseJohnny