Standing on Tee Marker for Aiding a Swing

[Chilli Dipper]

1 hour ago, jamo said:

Speaking in practical terms, would it even be possible to make a swing with your foot on the tee marker without moving it? Most tee markers I've seen aren't heavy and bolted down like a bench or a chair would be. 

Most of the courses I have played have used as tee markers either plastic orbs grounded by a stake, or wood plank not grounded at all. I feel like, if it doesn't move the instant I step on it when taking a stance, it will definitely move when I shift my weight on the downswing. The only way I think I could make a swing without violating Rule 13.2 is by staying on my back foot the whole time, which would result in a terrible shot.

That said, my belief is that the scenario laid out in the original post is a violation of Rule 13.3. If a player, when given all the room in the world to take an unimpeded stance on the teeing ground, tees the ball in the one spot where he address the ball with his lead foot on the marker, I don't see how that doesn't constitute building a stance.

[sirhacksalot]

1 hour ago, jamo said:

Speaking in practical terms, would it even be possible to make a swing with your foot on the tee marker without moving it? Most tee markers I've seen aren't heavy and bolted down like a bench or a chair would be. 

Not at all courses , even my home course uses the big plastic orbs but there is a local course that uses logs about 2-3" diameter and a foot long that I could see trying this on.

Edited May 29, 2016 by sirhacksalot
werds is hard

[Martyn W]

11 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Sorry, but the tee marker is a device. It is a device by which the tournament committee, greenkeeper, or course superintendent inform you that you may not tee your ball forward of that mark! Also, that you may tee your ball 2 club lengths behind that mark.

Your reply sounds very authoritative, please share your source.

2 hours ago, jamo said:

Speaking in practical terms, would it even be possible to make a swing with your foot on the tee marker without moving it? Most tee markers I've seen aren't heavy and bolted down like a bench or a chair would be. 

There is no penalty for moving the marker. D 11-2/2

A player moves a tee-marker before or after playing a stroke from the teeing ground as a result of falling over the marker - no penalty and the tee-marker should be replaced.

(d) A player moves a tee-marker before or after playing a stroke from the teeing ground as a result of intentionally kicking it or striking it with a club - no penalty and the tee-marker should be replaced.

1 hour ago, Chilli Dipper said:

I don't see how that doesn't constitute building a stance.

The tee marker was already there; he didn't build anything.

[Chilli Dipper]

33 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

The tee marker was already there; he didn't build anything.

You're voluntarily placing the ball in such a position near an immovable obstruction that the stance is already built for you: the intent is exactly the same.

If your ball comes to rest near an immovable obstruction, you may play the ball as it lies, but you are also entitled to full relief from the obstruction. The one thing you're not allowed to do is drop the ball so that the obstruction is still interfering with your swing, but in a more advantageous way than it was originally. The only difference here is that off the tee, playing the ball as it lies isn't an option.

Whether or not there is a specific rule for this scenario, there are multiple grounds to conclude that it is in violation of the rules of golf, and warrants a two-stroke penalty. Unless you're positive that standing on the tee marker is the only way you can avoid losing your tee ball, it's not worth it.

[Martyn W]

2 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

I don't see how that doesn't constitute building a stance.

The tee marker was already there; he didn't build anything.

41 minutes ago, Chilli Dipper said:

Whether or not there is a specific rule for this scenario, there are multiple grounds to conclude that it is in violation of the rules of golf, and warrants a two-stroke penalty.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense. 'Whether or not the is a specific Rule.....it warrants a penalty' ???

Please share with us one of the 'multiple grounds'.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, Chilli Dipper said:

You're voluntarily placing the ball in such a position near an immovable obstruction that the stance is already built for you: the intent is exactly the same.

Intent is not component of rule 13-3, building a stance.

 

[gregsandiego]

On 5/28/2016 at 7:13 PM, sirhacksalot said:

Thanks for finding the YouTube video that started this thread. Maybe we should ask the meandmygolf guys what they think? 

And I'm not sure I see any tee markers in this video...

[Dormie1360]

One little point.  Tee markers identifying the teeing ground are deemed to be fixed.  They are not obstructions until after the player makes his first stroke from the teeing ground.

The only thing I can think of that might be a violation is if the tee marker moved while making his stroke.  See  D13-2/1.1  I'm not sure fairly taking your stance includes putting your foot on a tee marker.

 

13-2/1.1

 

Player Attempts to Take Stance Fairly But Improves Line of Play by Moving Interfering Growing Object

 

Q.A player's ball lies under the branch of a tree. In attempting to take his stance fairly, the player improves his line of play by moving the branch with his body. Before playing, he realizes he could have taken his stance without moving the branch. He abandons his stance and the branch returns to its original position or is returned to its original position by the player. The player then approaches the ball from a different direction, takes his stance without disturbing the branch and makes his stroke. What is the ruling?

A.There is no penalty. When fairly taking his stance the player is required to take his stance in the least intrusive manner that results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. However, as the branch moved as a result of the player's attempt to take his stance fairly and was returned to its original position before the stroke was made, there is no penalty. Any doubt as to whether the branch returned to its original position should be resolved against the player.

The same principle would apply to fixed artificial objects (e.g., a boundary stake) if the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play is improved as a result of the player's attempt to take his stance fairly but the object is returned to its original position before the player makes a stroke.

[Ernest Jones]

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this was already raised but the bolded - standing on tee marker for aiding a swing - seems to run afoul of the spirit of the game. 

[Chilli Dipper]

5 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this was already raised but the bolded - standing on tee marker for aiding a swing - seems to run afoul of the spirit of the game. 

Well, duh.

But when some folks think they've found a loophole...the loophole is closed the next time the rules are published.

[Golfingdad]

8 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this was already raised but the bolded - standing on tee marker for aiding a swing - seems to run afoul of the spirit of the game. 

Yes, and it's for this reason that I avoided reading the thread for quite awhile.

Nevertheless, it turns out it's a fascinating read (to me, at least) because a lot of TST's smart rules minds can't seem to agree on what rule, if any, is violated by the act.

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Yes, and it's for this reason that I avoided reading the thread for quite awhile.

Nevertheless, it turns out it's a fascinating read (to me, at least) because a lot of TST's smart rules minds can't seem to agree on what rule, if any, is violated by the act.

I'm in the same boat.  I've read most of the posts, and a lot of the posters are people who are familiar with the rules, and care about playing in accordance with them.  Yet we still seem to have a division of opinion, with nobody being able to point to a specific rule that clearly resolves the issue.  I'll be very interested to hear from @iacas and @Rulesman as to what they're told by the USGA and R&A officials.  We've also not heard from anyone who has actually tried to swing this way, I'd be interested to find out if you can do it without breaking a leg.

[Chilli Dipper]

17 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm in the same boat.  I've read most of the posts, and a lot of the posters are people who are familiar with the rules, and care about playing in accordance with them.  Yet we still seem to have a division of opinion, with nobody being able to point to a specific rule that clearly resolves the issue.  I'll be very interested to hear from @iacas and @Rulesman as to what they're told by the USGA and R&A officials.  We've also not heard from anyone who has actually tried to swing this way, I'd be interested to find out if you can do it without breaking a leg.

Honestly, I think a tee marker would count as an artificial device under Rule 14.3. Even if the rule doesn't specify what an artificial device is, the original poster's admission of using it as a swing aid means it should be treated as such under these circumstances. I argue in this thread about it being a violation on other grounds only because the penalty for Rule 14.3 is disqualification, and I'd want to avoid making that call if there's an alternative.

Also, the USGA reserves the right to rule on a potential breach of Rule 14.3 on a case-by-case basis, so even if there is no language in the rules referring to tee markers, that doesn't make it okay.

[Chilli Dipper]

For the record, I sent an e-mail to the USGA Rules office with a link to this thread attached. Let's see if I get a reply that will answer this question once and for all.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Chilli Dipper said:

For the record, I sent an e-mail to the USGA Rules office with a link to this thread attached. Let's see if I get a reply that will answer this question once and for all.

They generally don't read stuff outside what you type in the email. I think.

Hopefully they at least read the first post.

[sirhacksalot]

20 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

Thanks for finding the YouTube video that started this thread. Maybe we should ask the meandmygolf guys what they think? 

And I'm not sure I see any tee markers in this video...

This thread was started for the idea of needing to swing up on the ball.  The video only helped me realize that I need to swing up on the ball.  Using a tee marker to aid my swing was/is honestly a thought that I had after watching the video and thinking about ways that I have practiced on the driving range trying to swing up. Using things to "build my stance" on the range.  However with tee markers seeming to be obstructions I was unaware if i could do this on the course. There are only a few courses around or that I have played that this would even work on.  

As far as this taking something away from the game.  I honestly didn't think of that and can see that point as well. 

[gregsandiego]

14 hours ago, sirhacksalot said:

This thread was started for the idea of needing to swing up on the ball.  The video only helped me realize that I need to swing up on the ball.  Using a tee marker to aid my swing was/is honestly a thought that I had after watching the video and thinking about ways that I have practiced on the driving range trying to swing up. Using things to "build my stance" on the range.  However with tee markers seeming to be obstructions I was unaware if i could do this on the course. There are only a few courses around or that I have played that this would even work on.  

As far as this taking something away from the game.  I honestly didn't think of that and can see that point as well. 

Have you considered just tilting the spine like they do in the video? LOL

[sirhacksalot]

27 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

Have you considered just tilting the spine like they do in the video? LOL

Ha of course I have and do.  As much as I'm curious of the legality of doing this, it's mainly just a random thought from a weekend duffer.  As mentioned before it might be something I would try once, fail miserably and never try again.  Or it could be something that helps me carry a tree on a dogleg or a trap that I normally wouldn't take on. Or still , I tee the ball, prop my foot up and feel like I am cheating and put my foot down and go back to mediocre golf. All are possible but if I did try it, hypothetically, and it did work, and it didn't feel dirty, I would want to know that I was in conformance with the ROG.