Why Isn't Golf Taught Like Skiing?

[Blackjack Don]

14 minutes ago, Patch said:

The only way I could associate golf and skiing instruction is to start with easy stuff first. 

The US Ski Assoc started a program, "Learn to Ski," which included towline lift ticket, rental skis, and lesson, for a very reasonable price. Probably a loss leader. Shockingly not many actually start there. Most go along with people who can already ski (badly) and who believe they can teach anyone to ski because it's easy. 

Golf doesn't have the fear of dying to incentivize beginning golfers. I'd love to see stats on how many newbies start playing golf every year. Very hard to get accurate data, I'm sure, but it would be interesting to compare. 

If the PGA had a program that started someone off with chipping and pitching and putting. If there were a "bunny slope" for newbies. Nobody skis down the blacks of any area--even good old Wilmot Mountain, which is basically the top of a garbage dump. Most don't get on the lift chairs. (I did, but it wasn't pretty not knowing how to get off a chair!) If they take that Learn to Ski lesson, they have a ball. They may not be beautiful, but they are laughing all the way down the hill in their creaky wedges. (What are these poles for besides pushing me on the flats?) What about a "tee area" for beginning golfers, 50 yards from every hole. Some people never ski with their spouses or kids. Shoot, even if it takes six shots to get on the green, they'll be having fun. And if it's done properly, why can't you drive from the blacks, me from the seniors, my wife's friend from the reds and my wife from the newbies at 150?

I started to teach my wife to play. We started with putting and keeping her wrists from flicking. Then I gave her a seven iron from her own brand-new set, and had her hit from the mats. At first, she was terrible. Then, when she finally hit a pitch up in the air and straight, I got a very big smile. I remember those smiles. It was the smile someone had the first time they got all the way to the bottom without falling, made a couple of turns, and made that first run down the hill without killing themselves. The smile of accomplishment.

Surely smart people can come up with out-of-the-box ideas that sound crazy on first listen, but might be workable after some tweaking. This is just off the top of my head.

I believe it's possible that there is a much, much closer fit here with ski instruction than any of us think, now that I'm thinking like a ski instructor again. Remembering how we taught people to ski, I can see where the exact same thing could work with beginning golfers. Or even bad golfers. If you turn your head right and squint a little, then...

Sometimes the wheel really does need some reinvention.

(Every time I try to get out, they pull me back in!)

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

The US Ski Assoc started a program, "Learn to Ski," which included towline lift ticket, rental skis, and lesson, for a very reasonable price. Probably a loss leader. Shockingly not many actually start there. Most go along with people who can already ski (badly) and who believe they can teach anyone to ski because it's easy. 

Golf doesn't have the fear of dying to incentivize beginning golfers. I'd love to see stats on how many newbies start playing golf every year. Very hard to get accurate data, I'm sure, but it would be interesting to compare. 

If the PGA had a program that started someone off with chipping and pitching and putting. If there were a "bunny slope" for newbies.

They have a program.

http://www.pga.com/play-golf-america/get-golf-ready/

I wouldn't say that program turns out "golfers" though.

And like I said already, there's no real "bunny slope" because you'd need bigger clubs, bigger holes, bigger balls that were easier to get in the air, etc. They have that already - it's called foot golf.  And there are no clubs.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

What about a "tee area" for beginning golfers, 50 yards from every hole.

Nothing stopping them from doing that.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Shoot, even if it takes six shots to get on the green, they'll be having fun. And if it's done properly, why can't you drive from the blacks, me from the seniors, my wife's friend from the reds and my wife from the newbies at 150?

Nothing's stopping them from doing that now.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

I started to teach my wife to play. We started with putting and keeping her wrists from flicking. Then I gave her a seven iron from her own brand-new set, and had her hit from the mats. At first, she was terrible. Then, when she finally hit a pitch up in the air and straight, I got a very big smile. I remember those smiles. It was the smile someone had the first time they got all the way to the bottom without falling, made a couple of turns, and made that first run down the hill without killing themselves. The smile of accomplishment.

Let us know when she's breaking 100. I taught myself to ski. And golf. Guess which one I got pretty good at first? And I played a LOT of golf when I was a kid…

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Surely smart people can come up with out-of-the-box ideas that sound crazy on first listen, but might be workable after some tweaking. This is just off the top of my head.

And you wonder why I say you're not listening, or responding to the points raised against you.

Nobody wants to chip and putt for the first 100 hours they play golf. They want to hit the ball in the air and occasionally see it go far. Nobody takes lessons before they know if they like golf (Get Golf Ready struggles with that, and it even educates on basic rules and etiquette and is relatively inexpensive). Golf lessons are expensive, and golf - unlike skiing where you can get down the hill in a wedge, even if it's the bunny slope, pretty quickly - has a unique ability to make you feel like a fool as you whiff seven times in a row.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

I believe it's possible that there is a much, much closer fit here with ski instruction than any of us think, now that I'm thinking like a ski instructor again.

And who cares that nobody else agrees!!

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

I believe it's possible that there is a much, much closer fit here with ski instruction than any of us think, now that I'm thinking like a ski instructor again. Remembering how we taught people to ski, I can see where the exact same thing could work with beginning golfers. Or even bad golfers. If you turn your head right and squint a little, then...

Sometimes the wheel really does need some reinvention.

If you can figure it out, you'll be a rich man.

My money's on "you can't" for the many, many reasons I've already listed.

[jsgolfer]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

They have a program.

http://www.pga.com/play-golf-america/get-golf-ready/

I wouldn't say that program turns out "golfers" though.

And like I said already, there's no real "bunny slope" because you'd need bigger clubs, bigger holes, bigger balls that were easier to get in the air, etc. They have that already - it's called foot golf.  And there are no clubs.

Nothing stopping them from doing that.

Nothing's stopping them from doing that now.

Let us know when she's breaking 100. I taught myself to ski. And golf. Guess which one I got pretty good at first? And I played a LOT of golf when I was a kid…

And you wonder why I say you're not listening, or responding to the points raised against you.

Nobody wants to chip and putt for the first 100 hours they play golf. They want to hit the ball in the air and occasionally see it go far. Nobody takes lessons before they know if they like golf (Get Golf Ready struggles with that, and it even educates on basic rules and etiquette and is relatively inexpensive). Golf lessons are expensive, and golf - unlike skiing where you can get down the hill in a wedge, even if it's the bunny slope, pretty quickly - has a unique ability to make you feel like a fool as you whiff seven times in a row.

And who cares that nobody else agrees!!

If you can figure it out, you'll be a rich man.

My money's on "you can't" for the many, many reasons I've already listed.

My money's on @iacas

[Hardspoon]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Nobody wants to chip and putt for the first 100 hours they play golf. They want to hit the ball in the air and occasionally see it go far. Nobody takes lessons before they know if they like golf

Good point - there's another important difference between golf and skiing:

Learning to ski is fun.  Sure, you're going to fall a lot, but you're moving downhill, and you're going to see continual progress (each successive attempt is generally better than the last).  I don't think there was any point in learning to snowboard that I thought I'd give up.

Learning to golf f--king sucks.  It's like trying to kill a fly with a yoyo.  Frustrating as hell, and unless you get that sense of "Damn, I'm going to really enjoy this eventually" (which, fortunately, I did), the urge to give up is pretty darn strong.

[Lihu]

13 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

My money's on @iacas

Same here.

If we make any comparison to successful golf instruction and ski instruction, it would be with him and his dedication to improving golf.

13 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

Good point - there's another important difference between golf and skiing:

Learning to ski is fun.  Sure, you're going to fall a lot, but you're moving downhill, and you're going to see continual progress (each successive attempt is generally better than the last).  I don't think there was any point in learning to snowboard that I thought I'd give up.

Learning to golf f--king sucks.  It's like trying to kill a fly with a yoyo.  Frustrating as hell, and unless you get that sense of "Damn, I'm going to really enjoy this eventually" (which, fortunately, I did), the urge to give up is pretty darn strong.

Yeah, before you can actually reliably hit the ball, golf pretty much sucks. . .

Maybe it's good for golf that most golfers only remember their best shots and not their average ones.

 

[Blackjack Don]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

My money's on "you can't" for the many, many reasons I've already listed.

Well, you can finally stop saying I'm not listening. You win. 

 

[Lihu]

15 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Well, you can finally stop saying I'm not listening. You win.

Hard to beat Erik in an argument about golf.

BTW, where do you teach? My kids are possibly interested in snow board lessons as they are also learning to surf. . .or rather paddle and wait most of the time.

Also, we'll be staying near Taos all next week, only a 36" base and 36" summit, but far better than here. There's possible snow on the 3rd day we're there. Cross fingers. . .

[DeadMan]

I'm going to rehash a bunch of points other have already made here, but here's why:

1. Skiing is much more basic than golf. There aren't nearly as many moving parts. You don't use a lot of your body in skiing, but you use basically all of it for golfing.
2. Feedback with skiing is so much easier. If you screw up something, you'll immediately fall. You can adjust to that easier. In golf, you can try to fix something but still not be fixing it because the feedback is not there to the same extent.
3. Skiing is dangerous, so you need a basic safety and instructional program to prevent people from getting seriously hurt. A beginner going down a hard slope is a recipe for disaster for the beginner and other people on the slope. Stand behind the person swinging in golf, and you're pretty safe.
4. People can figure out skiing by doing one lesson. Or at least get enough instruction that they can figure out the rest on their own. That is definitely not true in golf.
5. Teaching people how to ski is easier. I can probably teach someone how to go down a bunny slope in 30 minutes. I don't think I could teach a complete beginner how to get the ball in the air in the same time.

Instruction in golf could definitely be a lot better, and it would be a lot better if it wasn't a wild west of 1,000s of different programs and ideas on how to teach a golf swing. But you can't train a bunch of stoned 20 year olds to be good golf instructors in a couple of hours like you can with skiing.

[Lihu]

I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise, but your examples are very poor.

 

14 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I'm going to rehash a bunch of points other have already made here, but here's why:

1. Skiing is much more basic than golf. There aren't nearly as many moving parts. You don't use a lot of your body in skiing, but you use basically all of it for golfing.

Someone living in Denver thinks this?

 

14 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

1. Feedback with skiing is so much easier. If you screw up something, you'll immediately fall. You can adjust to that easier. In golf, you can try to fix something but still not be fixing it because the feedback is not there to the same extent.

I'm sure you've never duffed a ball before.

 

14 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

1. Skiing is dangerous, so you need a basic safety and instructional program to prevent people from getting seriously hurt. A beginner going down a hard slope is a recipe for disaster for the beginner and other people on the slope. Stand behind the person swinging in golf, and you're pretty safe.

Unless, the club slips out of the persons hands or the ball comes back from a tree standing 20 feet away.

 

14 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

1. People can figure out skiing by doing one lesson. Or at least get enough instruction that they can figure out the rest on their own. That is definitely not true in golf.

Almost everyone I know has learned to hack the ball from the tee to the green after a half hour lesson.

The real difference is when you want to get to the green in regulation.

 

14 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

1. Teaching people how to ski is easier. I can probably teach someone how to go down a bunny slope in 30 minutes. I don't think I could teach a complete beginner how to get the ball in the air in the same time.

Instruction in golf could definitely be a lot better, and it would be a lot better if it wasn't a wild west of 1,000s of different programs and ideas on how to teach a golf swing. But you can't train a bunch of stoned 20 year olds to be good golf instructors in a couple of hours like you can with skiing.

 

I agree, the fact that there are so many golf "cures" tells us something about the difficulty of golf instruction.

 

[DeadMan]

What the heck is the point of that post, @Lihu? You're being overly pedantic. What if the club slips of your hand? Really?

 

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

What the heck is the point of that post, @Lihu? You're being overly pedantic. What if the club slips of your hand? Really?

Seriously.

[jsgolfer]

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Well, you can finally stop saying I'm not listening. You win. 

 

I don't think @iacaspoint was about winning, unless of course there was lots of cash involved.  

He, along with others, have tried to convey that there isn't one right way to swing a golf club.  And Erik hit on several throughout his responses, with just a couple below, which to me just reinforces the points he's been trying to make throughout this long voluminous thread.  

 

On 12/19/2016 at 0:31 PM, iacas said:

Virtually every golfer has a repeatable swing. Consistency isn't really their problem. It's the super tiny margin for error that is the problem, and the fact that their consistent swing is a bad swing.

Everyone's body is not built the same.

I disagree that a good shot requires a square clubface. Very, very few good players have a clubface that's "square" to the target or their club path at impact.

 

To build on Erik's everyone's body isn't built the same (weight, height, flexibility, athletic ability, etc.), in fact nothing about any of us are really the same.  My father has a bad shoulder, he can't swing the club above parallel, trying to teach him that would be a futile endeavor.  I hurt my wrist many years ago when I was young.  As such, I learned to play without cocking my wrists (ala JB Holmes).  I'd say I have a decent swing for about 14 holes

I also think too many golfers I know try to get the clubface "square" at impact, but I'm not sure I play with any golfers (good or bad) who hit a straight ball.  Our last two club champions, one plays a fade and the other plays a draw.  I play a draw, it's my consistent ball flight, so that's what I play.  It doesn't work every time, but more often then not. 

At the end of the day, it seems your convinced that there should be only one way hit a golf ball (that it's all physics).  

So I guess we'll all agree to disagree.

 

[mvmac]

Even if everyone was born with a good golf swing the game would still be difficult. You have to hit the ball a much longer distance than any other sport and put it in a hole that's only a little bigger than the ball. Every course is different, each hole is different, there are no do-overs and you have to count every shot.

The motion of the golf swing is ridiculous, there is no "evolutionary" reason anyone should be good at golf. The golf swing is rotating your body on a titled angle to hit a stationary ball on the ground with a metal stick. It's crazy.

[saevel25]

I agree. 

Skiing you are basically using your balance. 

Golf is a much more complex motion. Some of the best hand eye coordinated athletes in the world suck at golf. It's a rare thing to say. I find it funny that I could probably beat most athletes in a round of golf. :) 

[Lihu]

On 12/21/2016 at 9:45 AM, DeadMan said:

What the heck is the point of that post, @Lihu? You're being overly pedantic. What if the club slips of your hand? Really?

Other than that one part of it, the point is that you are completely off base with the "skiing is less athletic" post you made. . .

[Ernest Jones]

Same reason fishing is not taught like hang gliding.  

39 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Other than that one part of it, the point is that you are completely off base with the "skiing is less athletic" post you made. . .

Just admit it was a goofy post and move on. No need to double down. 

[14ledo81]

@Blackjack Don, Erik has always said to find your priority piece (usually need a competent instructor to diagnose) and work on it.  I think that's as close as you are going to get to finding a "system".

[Lihu]

16 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Same reason fishing is not taught like hang gliding.  

Just admit it was a goofy post and move on. No need to double down. 

I'm not the one doubling down. I'll freely admit that my delivery was stupidly stated because I was trying to be "polite".

The notion that skiing is less athletic than golf, was completely absurd to me. I should have just said it was stupid and left it at that.