Anything that will drop a 20 to a 15? A 15 to a 10?

[dennyjones]

This is why I believe that keeping stats is so very important.   Unless you have raw data to verify your area that need improvement, the average golfer really doesn't know what areas to practice.   That is why so many people head to the driving range and just beat balls all day with their driver.  

nGIR, putts per GIR,  putting distances,  etc..

[NJpatbee]

I have never been better than a 15 so I can address what worked for me going from a 20:

- Eliminate all penalties from the driver

- Reduce 3 putts

- Always get out of the sand.

- Practice often, it only has to take about an hour

As far as getting better than a 15 you need to play a lot more often than I am able to.  

 

[Shooting29]

I have not read LSW so this advice may or may not agree with it and keep in mind some of what I will say is anecdotal and you will have a ceiling based on skill. You will have to become a better ball striker.

I play with higher handicap players during league nights and the thing I noticed from the guys I play with is they just don't think their way around the course. There are more than a couple who hit the ball well enough to break 80 occasionally but rarely break 90 because of mental errors. They lay up when they should go for it and go for it when they should lay up. They will lay up into trouble and compound mistakes.

An example would be when they are short sided. They try to hit a miracle instead of just making sure they get it on the green and two putt for bogey.  They will hit it in the trees then try to punch out and knock it OB. They consistently under club. I can't remember the last time I played with a higher index player who hit any shot past the flag save for a bladed short pitch. They don't play to their strength. They'll hit a fade into the trees instead of aiming left because of the one time they hit it straight and it went into the left trees. They are not that good at reading greens and then don't pay attention when the other players ball gives good info or they misinterpreted said info. They hit one bad shot and think the round is over. They don't practice putting everything out then when they have to they miss all kinds of short putts. 

Be positive, play your strengths, know your limitations and take trouble out of play. You'll be amazed at how much better you score.

[Kalnoky]

22 minutes ago, Shooting29 said:

They consistently under club. I can't remember the last time I played with a higher index player who hit any shot past the flag save for a bladed short pitch. They don't play to their strength. They'll hit a fade into the trees instead of aiming left because of the one time they hit it straight and it went into the left trees.

Guilty as charged. Excellent post. 

[No Mulligans]

I went from a 26 to a 15 in a year at 58 years old, I'm now 59.  I've been as low as a 14 HI, my Game Golf Handicap has been as low as a 12.  I developed a passion for the game, practicing and playing the game.  

Talent wise, I figure I'm about average for someone my age.

That passion resulted in my practicing or playing almost every day (9 out of 10 days at least).  Sometimes It might be just 20 balls into a net for 10 minutes, sometimes I'll go for 40 minutes.  (An hour of practice? meh... For me I should really be able to get enough practice in 30 minutes or less, after that I'm probably wasting my time).  I often remind myself that my practice needs to have a purpose, i.e. something specific I'm working on.

Instruction, video, 5SK, the five S's, are key elements that come to mind that have helped me over the last couple of years.  5SK is a great template for my understanding the swing, and my ability to self analyze my own videos.  5SK really simplifies things.

Another game changer for me was finding an inexpensive course that I could play quickly.  I play most of my rounds at an executive course, par 58, where I pay a $30 monthly fee that gets me $5 18 hole rounds weekdays before 8 a.m and includes free range balls.  I'm pretty frugal and this arrangement has put the whole expense of playing and practicing out of mind.  And I play before work and am often one of the 1st out in the morning playing solo.  I've played the course in 1 & 1/2 hours which included a bit of jogging between shots.

I think going down another 5 strokes on my HI would be an awesome result, but realistically I'm not sure it's possible.  Still going to try though.

[JonMA1]

30 minutes ago, Shooting29 said:

I have not read LSW so this advice may or may not agree with it and keep in mind some of what I will say is anecdotal and you will have a ceiling based on skill. You will have to become a better ball striker.

I play with higher handicap players during league nights and the thing I noticed from the guys I play with is they just don't think their way around the course. There are more than a couple who hit the ball well enough to break 80 occasionally but rarely break 90 because of mental errors. They lay up when they should go for it and go for it when they should lay up. They will lay up into trouble and compound mistakes.

An example would be when they are short sided. They try to hit a miracle instead of just making sure they get it on the green and two putt for bogey.  They will hit it in the trees then try to punch out and knock it OB. They consistently under club. I can't remember the last time I played with a higher index player who hit any shot past the flag save for a bladed short pitch. They don't play to their strength. They'll hit a fade into the trees instead of aiming left because of the one time they hit it straight and it went into the left trees. They are not that good at reading greens and then don't pay attention when the other players ball gives good info or they misinterpreted said info. They hit one bad shot and think the round is over. They don't practice putting everything out then when they have to they miss all kinds of short putts. 

Be positive, play your strengths, know your limitations and take trouble out of play. You'll be amazed at how much better you score.

I'd love to have someone play a few rounds with me and give advice on decision making that would save a few strokes.

Perhaps there are decisions I'm making out there that aren't as sound as I think they are. What might be more likely is I'm playing around my weaknesses... avoiding bunkers instead of improving my bunker play. Something along those lines.

[Psychonana]

I'd suggest first identifying where you are creating risk or loosing shots in all aspects of your game; errant drives, number of bunkers you get in. How many 3 putts, trebles and doubles do you typically have. Write them All down on a hit-list. Identify the skills that will help negate those more challenging shot scenarios and link them to your hit-list items. Now create a fallback plan for each scenario. E.g. Hybrid rather than driver on the tee, lay up or play around when faced with a bunker, lag putting, etc.  Going forward play only your fallback plan. Set your goals for a limited but realistic period of time. (Eg: hit 8 fairways off the tee rather than 3 or no OABs rather than your usual 3) Take one skill a time and work on it until you can confidently implement the stroke into your game and only then will you allow yourself to retire the fallback option. Bit by bit you will see your hit-list disappear and your scoring improve. 

[Golfingdad]

54 minutes ago, Psychonana said:

I'd suggest first identifying where you are creating risk or loosing shots in all aspects of your game; errant drives, number of bunkers you get in. How many 3 putts, trebles and doubles do you typically have. Write them All down on a hit-list. Identify the skills that will help negate those more challenging shot scenarios and link them to your hit-list items. Now create a fallback plan for each scenario. E.g. Hybrid rather than driver on the tee, lay up or play around when faced with a bunker, lag putting, etc.  Going forward play only your fallback plan. Set your goals for a limited but realistic period of time. (Eg: hit 8 fairways off the tee rather than 3 or no OABs rather than your usual 3) Take one skill a time and work on it until you can confidently implement the stroke into your game and only then will you allow yourself to retire the fallback option. Bit by bit you will see your hit-list disappear and your scoring improve. 

This is good, but if you do this, though, don't forget to weigh your longer distance "hit list" items more heavily.  For example if you struggle getting out of bunkers and also struggle hitting greens with your irons, by all means, practice both.  But recognize that improving the iron play will ALSO help the bunker play because you will be in them less often. 

[alleztom]

Can I piggy back on this and as (as a 13.8) how much harder people find losing the 20th -15th shot from the 15th - 10th shot.

Also for me getting from 20-15 was mainly short game. I'm long enough for the courses I play, but was missing the green with 2/3 chips a round (duffs mainly) and losing about 4 shots a round putting (using an approximation of Pelz' strokes gained). I had a putting lesson and using the short game resources of this site I've improved these by about 5 shots a round (3 chipping, 2 putting). Not back to working on long game... hit more greens.

[Psychonana]

15 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

This is almost entirely dependent on whatever the primary focus of improvement is for the player. One person *me* could be struggling with a flip, and what I need to work in would be completely different from someone who is fighting an over the top/outside to in slice issue. There really isn't any one fix that anyone can use to drop a bunch of strokes.

Well, quality of ball strike is one thing, short game skills another and playing smarter is another. I'd argue that learning to play smarter, particularly for higher handicapped players, is a lot easier to implement than elevating the quality of their ball striking, and a lot faster than elevating your skills to the next level. Blackjack Don, I feel, maybe looking for a fast track means to drop his handicap - IE "One Fix". I really don't think it is this simple. Fixing your swing or improving your skills usually takes a lot more time and practice. At his HC level I believe the easiest way would be through smarter play.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Psychonana

[Psychonana]

9 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

This is good, but if you do this, though, don't forget to weigh your longer distance "hit list" items more heavily.  For example if you struggle getting out of bunkers and also struggle hitting greens with your irons, by all means, practice both.  But recognize that improving the iron play will ALSO help the bunker play because you will be in them less often. 

Agreed, your goals will work with each other to help other aspects of your game. Improving your green side chipping will help eliminate your 3 putt stats, simply working on keeping your ball on the fairway off the tee will help eliminate those OABs and consequentially some of your trebles and doubles... remember EVERY single golfer started as a high handicapper. 

[Blackjack Don]

Interesting conversation. Thanks for the thoughts, except for the crack about me not being interested. When LSW joins the 21st century and is available electronically, I'll get it. I haven't bought a paperback in years. Insulting is not a trust-builder, babe.

I was simply asking what people thought, if they could come up with something that makes a 10-20% difference in a high handicap's golf. Perhaps pivot, because few 20 hcp turn well enough. That led to physical conditioning. That might shave a bunch of strokes off most games, even perhaps single digits. Yes, we can all point out Craig Stadler, but outliers do not disprove anything. Conditioning and flexibility. How can anyone make a decent golf swing if they can't turn the hips? 

Inside out swing? Coming over the top is a lot easier than an inside out swing. It takes a lot of practice to bring the elbow in, turn the hips, drop the club inside, and strike the ball with a forward swing bottom. I would guess that those things combined might make a big difference in a high handicap game. Or just hip turn.

I submit that anyone who doesn't have those basics down isn't going to have to worry about short-side bunkers and 30 yard pitches. They aren't going to break a hundred. But what do I know? I haven't read the book.

We can disagree without being disagreeable, right?

[Blackjack Don]

On second thought, I have to go with lessons. I thought I would be able to make progress with swing video, discussion, and repetitions. Maybe I might have, but a couple of lessons has made my progress much faster. That pair of eyes and immediate feedback can't be found on the Internet.

So, lessons. That's my answer.

[woodzie264]

49 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Interesting conversation. Thanks for the thoughts, except for the crack about me not being interested. When LSW joins the 21st century and is available electronically, I'll get it. I haven't bought a paperback in years. Insulting is not a trust-builder, babe.

 

I get where you're coming from on some of what you're saying, but why prejudice against an actual book?

I have lent my copy out to several folks and bought an extra copy for one of my buddies...because I had it in hand, it was very easy to help others out.  I get that you'd prefer it to be available electronically, but if improving your score is important to you, this is a no-brainer. If I had a buddy who wasn't even willing to buy a book, I'd have to question whether or not it was really important to him.  I hope you reconsider, Don

[CarlSpackler]

Buying and reading a book or taking lessons will do nothing unless you get to work and put in the reps. Knowing that I have Key #1 issues and swaying hips did nothing until I started practicing every day specifically on correcting it. This was posted by a drum instructor yesterday.

Quote

DRUMMING RANT: You want to get better at drums? Then practice, it's as simple as that. Don't be LAZY! You have endless amounts of information at your fingertips - whether you use Drumeo, a private teacher, another lesson site, or whatever. You have no excuses, just put in the work and you will get results. The difference between successful and non-successful drummers is the quality and quantity of work that they put into it.

The same is true for golf.

[iacas]

11 hours ago, alleztom said:

Can I piggy back on this and as (as a 13.8) how much harder people find losing the 20th -15th shot from the 15th - 10th shot.

That seems to be written as if to say going from 20-15 is more difficult than going from 15-10. I'm going to assume maybe you didn't mean that, as that flies in the face of most of what we know: each successive block, regardless of the size, is more difficult to get past. Moving from a 15-10 is more difficult than a 20-15.

That said, we've had some people who hang out at a 20, get to an 18 over years of work on their own, and then become an 11 in three months because they finally started working on the right things.  The general rule about difficulty assumes you're putting in the same amount and kinds of effort.

4 hours ago, Psychonana said:

Well, quality of ball strike is one thing, short game skills another and playing smarter is another. I'd argue that learning to play smarter, particularly for higher handicapped players, is a lot easier to implement than elevating the quality of their ball striking, and a lot faster than elevating your skills to the next level. Blackjack Don, I feel, maybe looking for a fast track means to drop his handicap - IE "One Fix". I really don't think it is this simple. Fixing your swing or improving your skills usually takes a lot more time and practice. At his HC level I believe the easiest way would be through smarter play.

GamePlanning is an SV④ skill… but it's importance is often over-stated. There aren't many 20s that I think can get down to 15s just by being smarter. I attributed, what, two strokes to it above? Because you can still have the smartest plan in the world but if you shank or top a ball into the water… well that's not something you really "plan on."

53 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Thanks for the thoughts, except for the crack about me not being interested. When LSW joins the 21st century and is available electronically, I'll get it. I haven't bought a paperback in years. Insulting is not a trust-builder, babe.

My only crack was "his loss," and that's not really a "crack" at all, babe.

Like @woodzie264 said, if you're really trying to give golf a fair shot, I honestly don't know why you haven't bought the book. Spite? Maybe, but it's at the cost of your golf game, I honestly believe that. I started TST and share so much information here, for free, because I want to give back to golf. I want people to play better. That's why I do these things. I want to make people's lives better, happier, more enjoyable because they play better golf.

We've explained the reasons why it's not available electronically in several places, and this didn't stop nearly 15,000 other people from buying it. We get orders every week from people who are not only willing to buy a paperback, but to do so paying an extra $15 or $20 to ship it overseas to them.

But thanks for your "crack" at joining the 21st century. I'm one of the most technically forward thinking people here, and I assure you that the choice to print physical books was done so carefully, and we don't regret it in the least.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

I was simply asking what people thought, if they could come up with something that makes a 10-20% difference in a high handicap's golf. Perhaps pivot, because few 20 hcp turn well enough. That led to physical conditioning. That might shave a bunch of strokes off most games, even perhaps single digits. Yes, we can all point out Craig Stadler, but outliers do not disprove anything. Conditioning and flexibility. How can anyone make a decent golf swing if they can't turn the hips? 

I don't think physical conditioning is that important. I've yet to meet someone who "can't turn their hips" - that's often much more a matter of education and knowing how to do it than a real inability to do so.

Craig Stadler isn't an outlier (Carl Petterssen may be these days, but then again you're talking about the PGA Tour…). You can find boatloads of 10 handicappers who are out of shape. I teach a lot of 'em.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

I submit that anyone who doesn't have those basics down isn't going to have to worry about short-side bunkers and 30 yard pitches. They aren't going to break a hundred. But what do I know? I haven't read the book.

We can disagree without being disagreeable, right?

I don't know… can you?

I'm sticking by the answer I gave earlier:

19 hours ago, iacas said:

• Two shots practicing your short game. It's not going to help too much more than that, but it'll help a reasonable amount in the short term.
• One to two shots just learning how to better putt - by that I mean not leaving short putts short of the hole, and by hitting longer putts the exact distance of the hole.
• Two shots with smarter play. That doesn't mean game planning all of your full-swing shots, but for example… choosing the proper short game shot. KISS.

Generally speaking, that is.

The best actual advice I can give? Find a good instructor and work with him. He'll save you as many strokes as possible, limited by of course your own work ethic and ability.

[alleztom]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

That seems to be written as if to say going from 20-15 is more difficult than going from 15-10. I'm going to assume maybe you didn't mean that, as that flies in the face of most of what we know: each successive block, regardless of the size, is more difficult to get past. Moving from a 15-10 is more difficult than a 20-15.

That said, we've had some people who hang out at a 20, get to an 18 over years of work on their own, and then become an 11 in three months because they finally started working on the right things.  The general rule about difficulty assumes you're putting in the same amount and kinds of effort.

Apologies - the assumption is correct - it was meant as how much harder is 15-10 than 20-15 - upon re-reading I can see how it was ambiguous. The question is how much harder did people who have done it found the 15-10 than the 20-15.

[Groucho Valentine]

I didn't have a handicap until i was already a 70's shooter, so i cant really answer the question per sea. But after i got one i made my biggest jump from around 4 to scratch. Mostly due to improvements in short game and putting. 

If one is concerned with just the number, improvements in short game and putting is the quickest way to drop handicaps quickly. I don't know what a 20 handicap usually shoots (say 90). All else being the same, If you can just get up and down 4-5 more times a round for par, your handicap can drop dramatically in just a few revisions.