Who Can Call Rule Violations? Should it change? (another Lexi-based topic)

[krupa]

People have started new threads about possible changing the rules, whether her placement was reasonable or not, etc.  But it seems to me that the one aspect that hasn't gotten focused discussion is whether to allow viewers to call/email the tournament to report possible violations.

On the one hand, you have those that want to get as close to the truth as possible and if a spectator at the course can say something, then so should a viewer at home.

Others have said that the viewers are just that, viewers... they are watching what is going on and not really supposed to participate.

Personally, I feel that viewers should not be able to report possible violations.  If professional golfers are showing that they cannot be trusted to call violations on themselves then we need more on-course supervision.  I accept that that is not a perfect solution; on-course supervisors won't catch everything.  However, I believe it's more fair to the players because (a) only some golfers have every shot recorded and broadcast putting some golfers under more scrutiny than others and (b) the golfers are able to "face their accusers" (for lack of a better phrase) in a timely fashion.

Ideally, the golfers' integrity would be unquestionable and we wouldn't have these situations but professional golfers are also human.

Edited April 5, 2017 by krupa

[DaveP043]

While I'm uncomfortable with the day-late nature of the Lexi situation, I believe the Rules officials should do their best to act on evidence, no matter how (or when) it comes to them.  On one hand, we have sports highlights of (for instance) baseball, with the commentary "Look how the umpire blew a call at home,the Mets lost this game because of a bad call".  With golf the way it is, the news highlight says "Look, the LPGA discovered and penalized an infraction that otherwise would have gone unnoticed."   I would hate to have that commentary change to "Watch this, if Speith had been properly penalized, Mickelson would have won his first US Open".  And I just picked a few names, I'm not intentionally pointing fingers at anyone.

[iacas]

Viewers who call in are not participating.

They're bringing something to the attention of the committee. They're probably golfers themselves. They probably value the integrity of the game, and realize that it would be worse if the video of a player breaching the rules (or outright cheating) surfaced after the event.

A "viewer at home" may be an off-duty rules official, a competitor, a caddie, an agent, or even some guy who really hates the player and wants to see them punished (for a breach they committed, to be clear).

Either way, the competition is "truer" or "closer to the truth" when someone calls in and alerts the committee to something that happened.

The golf world tends to over-react to these types of things, but they don't happen very often. And I see no way to really differentiate between someone seeing something based on HOW they see it - video evidence is far superior to spectator testimony, after all. Why throw out a very useful source of information?

The ruling bodies, I think, feel similarly to me as this rule hasn't changed much since 1957, or 1987 when Craig Stadler was DQed for kneeling on a towel after a viewer called in.

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I would hate to have that commentary change to "Watch this, if Speith had been properly penalized, Mickelson would have won his first US Open".  And I just picked a few names, I'm not intentionally pointing fingers at anyone.

That would be far worse than "Lexi broke the rules and was caught and punished appropriately."

Which is what these recent headlines could accurately read…

[cipher]

Yes, as long as the call/email and the penalty are assessed the same day in which it occurred.    That gives enough time to review and the player is made aware by no later than the next morning.

[krupa]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

They're bringing something to the attention of the committee. They're probably golfers themselves. They probably value the integrity of the game, and realize that it would be worse if the video of a player breaching the rules (or outright cheating) surfaced after the event.

I agree.  I'm not doubting or questioning the motivations of the people who call in.

But what if the entire Lexi episode happened on Sunday instead of Saturday?  Because the tournament is over Sunday, should infractions found that night during a rebroadcast be ignored?  Could they or should they be taken into account?   

Would you support any kind of time limit to getting these reports in?  

It seems like there's really no good solution.  Doing what they're doing, it can take 12 holes before a final decision is made.  On the flip side, embracing the idea of taking call-in tips and setting up an official phone number or web site would just open the floodgates to idiots who just want to screw around.  

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, krupa said:

But what if the entire Lexi episode happened on Sunday instead of Saturday? Because the tournament is over Sunday, should infractions found that night during a rebroadcast be ignored? Could they or should they be taken into account?

No. The 72 holes are over, and people have gone home. I think the USGA/R&A chose the best possible "line" with "close of competition."

The 72 holes weren't finished when the person emailed. They would have been had they emailed Monday.

2 minutes ago, krupa said:

Would you support any kind of time limit to getting these reports in?

We already have one: the close of competition. It's fine IMO.

2 minutes ago, krupa said:

It seems like there's really no good solution.

I don't agree at all. I think the "solution" is exactly what we have now.

[Rulesman]

Quote from P Harrington 

"We like the fact that people call in. We like the fact people who watch the telecasts get excited about something they see,"

 

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Either way, the competition is "truer" or "closer to the truth" when someone calls in and alerts the committee to something that happened.

My problem with it is that "closer to the truth" is further from fair when you factor in the massive disparity in television coverage between players.  Not a huge deal on Sundays when the leaders are all close to equally covered.  A little bit more of an issue on Saturdays because people can make big runs from back in the pack before TV starts.  Especially noticeable on Thursdays and Fridays when basically only marquee players (and players shooting amazing rounds) are shown.

I know some people say "life isn't fair" but this isn't life, it's a game.  Games should have as close to a level playing field as possible.

[Dick Kusleika]

I'm having a hard time answering this question. But I have some questions of my own.

How do you contact a golf tournament to report a rules violation? I went to lpga.com and saw a feedback form, but really no other contact mechanism. What email address did this viewer use?

Why is the LPGA monitoring this email account during a tournament anyway? I would think Thursday-Sunday on event weeks is pretty much all hands on deck taking care of the tournament. Sure, you answer emails and phone calls from sponsors or pros, but I'd think they'd have private ways to contact tour officials. 

If the LPGA wants to hear from the general public during a tournament so they can get tips on rules violations, they don't seem to publicize the methods of contact. Maybe the guy who emailed knew the secret handshake.

[jsgolfer]

36 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

My problem with it is that "closer to the truth" is further from fair when you factor in the massive disparity in television coverage between players.  Not a huge deal on Sundays when the leaders are all close to equally covered.  A little bit more of an issue on Saturdays because people can make big runs from back in the pack before TV starts.  Especially noticeable on Thursdays and Fridays when basically only marquee players (and players shooting amazing rounds) are shown.

I know some people say "life isn't fair" but this isn't life, it's a game.  Games should have as close to a level playing field as possible.

This is how I feel.  Not everyone is subject to the same level of scrutiny.  

[JetFan1983]

1 hour ago, cipher said:

Yes, as long as the call/email and the penalty are assessed the same day in which it occurred.    That gives enough time to review and the player is made aware by no later than the next morning.

I not only approve of emails and call-ins, but would also go further in thinking that the tour needs to make it easier for these emails/call-ins to reach officials on the ground. A 24 hour response time between a fire and a fire truck arriving should probably be unacceptable. Whether that means making access easier for callers to reach officials or it means actually hiring a couple of people to eat sun chips and watch the broadcast, I don't know.

Certainly the players themselves need to have a good conversation with a rules guru explaining to them why they need to take their roles as referees more seriously, but I also think improving the response time between violation and penalty should be looked at as well.

[David in FL]

I want to say "no", it just doesn't seem fair.  But intellectually, I just can't find any reason not to say "yes".  

I just can't think of a good reason why identifying any breach in the rules is a bad thing....

[roamin]

@iacas's posts from the first Lexi thread made this pretty black and white for me. A spectator is a spectator, and in the end it gets us closer to the truth. I just think that has to be important in a game that relies so heavily on one's own integrity.

4 hours ago, cipher said:

Yes, as long as the call/email and the penalty are assessed the same day in which it occurred.    That gives enough time to review and the player is made aware by no later than the next morning.

A lot of folks have called for this in the other related threads, and I don't get it. She signed the card immediately after her round (like all of them do), so the 4-stroke penalty would still stand, no?

Edit: Also, that'd be like football where you just have to snap it before they call for a review. Great for football. If my team gets away with one, so be it. I don't want golf to be that.

Edited April 5, 2017 by roamin
Apparently, I'm just starting to learn how to use a 'puter.

[cipher]

1 hour ago, JetFan1983 said:

I not only approve of emails and call-ins, but would also go further in thinking that the tour needs to make it easier for these emails/call-ins to reach officials on the ground. A 24 hour response time between a fire and a fire truck arriving should probably be unacceptable. Whether that means making access easier for callers to reach officials or it means actually hiring a couple of people to eat sun chips and watch the broadcast, I don't know.

Certainly the players themselves need to have a good conversation with a rules guru explaining to them why they need to take their roles as referees more seriously, but I also think improving the response time between violation and penalty should be looked at as well.

Agree with faster response time and more accessibility.

20 minutes ago, roamin said:

 

A lot of folks have called for this in the other related threads, and I don't get it. She signed the card immediately after her round (like all of them do), so the 4-stroke penalty would still stand, no?

Edit: Also, that'd be like football where you just have to snap it before they call for a review. Great for football. If my team gets away with one, so be it. I don't want golf to be that.

Issue for me is not really as much the penalty at this point.  It is the timing.

Edited April 5, 2017 by cipher

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

My problem with it is that "closer to the truth" is further from fair when you factor in the massive disparity in television coverage between players.

So you'd sacrifice getting closer to the truth and having a competition with that much more integrity just because not all players are shown equally?

It may be a poor analogy, but… would you let a criminal caught on tape go free just because not all convenience stores robbed have surveillance systems?

Not all players have the same weather conditions, the same playing partners, the same tee times, the same gallery sizes… etc. You can't legislate "fairness" and this, for me, goes well beyond making sense: you're giving up something valuable to gain… a sense of more "fairness"?

How about the fairness (or lack thereof) in letting someone known to have committed a breach of the rules get away with it? How is that "fair"?

Most players would rather be caught doing something and have the consequences handled appropriately. Could you imagine if Lexi had won by fewer than five strokes and THEN the video surfaced? She'd have been ripped. Told to DQ herself and turn over the trophy. Etc. That would be way worse than what happened. What happened made things right.

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I know some people say "life isn't fair" but this isn't life, it's a game.  Games should have as close to a level playing field as possible.

Games aren't fair either. Some courses suit high ball hitters. Some greens favor strong putters. Players who tee off later play on bumpier, spike-marked greens and often different weather. They often have larger crowds that can help them.

Plus, sometimes video exonerates. Rory McIlroy was able to "find" his ball in the tree at Kiawah Island because it was on TV. TV doesn't always punish.

2 hours ago, Dick Kusleika said:

How do you contact a golf tournament to report a rules violation? I went to lpga.com and saw a feedback form, but really no other contact mechanism. What email address did this viewer use?

The viewer probably knew the email address of one of the rules officials. That's why I suspect it wasn't some [derogatory terms] guy [sitting on a couch] [possibly in his underwear] [eating Cheetos].

Or maybe it took the person awhile to email because he had to go through several channels to find out who to contact.

2 hours ago, Dick Kusleika said:

Why is the LPGA monitoring this email account during a tournament anyway? I would think Thursday-Sunday on event weeks is pretty much all hands on deck taking care of the tournament. Sure, you answer emails and phone calls from sponsors or pros, but I'd think they'd have private ways to contact tour officials.

You still have lunch breaks, and there are still plenty of people at computers all day. Much of the communication that happens all week on-site at tournaments is via email.

2 hours ago, Dick Kusleika said:

If the LPGA wants to hear from the general public during a tournament so they can get tips on rules violations, they don't seem to publicize the methods of contact. Maybe the guy who emailed knew the secret handshake.

Seems that way.

41 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I just can't think of a good reason why identifying any breach in the rules is a bad thing....

Yep.

I can't imagine a PLAYER would want to have video of them getting away with a penalty just because it wasn't seen until 3am the next day (or whatever).

Remember, people still called for Tiger to WD from the Masters in 2013 after "some guy" got him in trouble over what he said in his press conference…

11 minutes ago, roamin said:

@iacas's posts from the first Lexi thread made this pretty black and white for me. A spectator is a spectator, and in the end it gets us closer to the truth. I just think that has to be important in a game that relies so heavily on one's own integrity.

Thanks. I agree.

11 minutes ago, roamin said:

A lot of folks have called for this in the other related threads, and I don't get it. She signed the card immediately after her round (like all of them do), so the 4-stroke penalty would still stand, no?

Right. And the violation occurred on the 17th green. They'd have had to act pretty damn quickly to get ahold of her prior to her signing her card.

20 minutes ago, cipher said:

issue for me is not really as much the penalty at this point.  It is the timing.

The 72 holes are still going on. It's a 72-hole event, but for practical reasons, you sign your card after every 18.

Know - and follow - the rules, try not to brain fart or intentionally cheat (whichever side you're on), and you won't have any issues. And if you're unsure if you may have done something to breach the rules, ask a rules official. That's why they're there.

I think Lexi would have gladly taken a two-stroke penalty Saturday over the four she got on Sunday.

[bkuehn1952]

Is a single spectator reporting a possible violation better than a call-in about actual video "evidence"?  At least a call-in gives the committee something to review. Spectators of any kind (on course, live TV or video replay) should be able to report possible violations.

I would make the cut off for reporting a violation prior to the tee off for the next day, with the exception where substantial evidence exists that the breach was intentional and known by the player (e.g. one kicks the ball away from a tree).  Yes, we will have cases where a violation comes to light between round 2 and 3 and it is too late,  The same situation exists now with a violation coming to light after the close of the tournament.  In almost every case so far, the TV call-in violations have never involved a case where many thought the violation was intentional.  I could live with giving a pass to Lexi, Anna and Dustin if their breach had been in the 2nd round and the call-in was after they had teed off the next day.

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

So you'd sacrifice getting closer to the truth and having a competition with that much more integrity just because not all players are shown equally?

Yes.  I wouldn't consider it more integrity when it's applied unevenly.

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

It may be a poor analogy, but… would you let a criminal caught on tape go free just because not all convenience stores robbed have surveillance systems?

Or something just as poor but a little more similar since it also involves athletes competing in games:  What if the NFL announced that they would start employing extra referees to watch for pass interference ... but only when the visiting team was on defense?

Or if Wimbledon had linesmen on one side of the court, but had the player call his own lines on the other side of the court?

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Could you imagine if Lexi had won by fewer than five strokes and THEN the video surfaced? She'd have been ripped. Told to DQ herself and turn over the trophy. Etc. That would be way worse than what happened. What happened made things right.

I could imagine it but I imagine it a lot differently than this.  Most people wouldn't care that much.

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

Games aren't fair either. Some courses suit high ball hitters. Some greens favor strong putters. Players who tee off later play on bumpier, spike-marked greens and often different weather. They often have larger crowds that can help them.

Right, and some ballparks are hitters ballparks or pitchers ballparks, or some tennis players are better on grass than clay, etc, etc.  But the one thing they all do have in common is that the officiating is even amongst all of the competitors.

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

Plus, sometimes video exonerates. Rory McIlroy was able to "find" his ball in the tree at Kiawah Island because it was on TV. TV doesn't always punish.

This is true.  But if you're gonna make me think about it, then the argument is the same, but in reverse - it's unfair to the players who aren't on TV.  It wouldn't be that hard to say "hey Roger Maltbie, you're covering the story, you're not part of the story, so stay out of it" if they wanted.

Now you make me curious what the players would say if polled on both counts.

[krupa]

1 hour ago, roamin said:

A lot of folks have called for this in the other related threads, and I don't get it. She signed the card immediately after her round (like all of them do), so the 4-stroke penalty would still stand, no?

The penalty would stand but she would have been notified before her final round started, or at least some time well before the 12th hole which is when she was notified on Sunday.