Ideal Pitching/Layup Distance

[Moxley]

I've been spending a lot of time on the short game recently (or broadly, anything inside 100 yds). Getting better with my wedge has given me a lot more confidence to play lob shots and proper attacking pitches rather than what i'd do before, which was pitch and run with an 8 iron whenever possible.

Watching a video yesterday , the 'me and my golf' guys suggested you should know your best distance and, where you are unlikely to reach the green with a shot, aim to get to that distance (e.g. 73 yds). It sounds like a good tip, because there is always a club and shot percentage combination that most players will be comfortable executing with high reliability. This is instead of just hitting it as close as possible (and perhaps needlessly bringing greenside hazards into play).

For me, I'm getting very comfortable in the 40-50 yard range - it's short enough that I can get a really good look at the green beforehand, won't need to worry about lateral misses going into a hazard, and I can generally feel the distance quite well. It's also long enough that I can play a lofted shot which gets high enough to stop promptly. 

Do other people play to get their approach shots within an ideal pitching distance? if so what is it? 

[jsgolfer]

No, I try and get the ball as close to the green as possible without putting myself in trouble.  

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Moxley said:

Watching a video yesterday , the 'me and my golf' guys suggested you should know your best distance and, where you are unlikely to reach the green with a shot, aim to get to that distance (e.g. 73 yds). It sounds like a good tip, because there is always a club and shot percentage combination that most players will be comfortable executing with high reliability. This is instead of just hitting it as close as possible (and perhaps needlessly bringing greenside hazards into play)

This is the traditional wisdom for laying up, get to a "good yardage", commonly a full swing wedge of some kind.  Newer statistically-driven strategy would suggest you try to get as close as possible while still avoiding trouble, as @jsgolfer suggests.  For me, I also try to get as close as I can, while taking "trouble" out of play if possible.  Of course, this decision can change with other factors.  If the pin is in the front of a green, and the green is really firm, I may want to be at a distance where I can spin the ball to a stop, meaning a bit further back.  I try to avoid severe slopes, they can make controlling the shot more difficult.  I also practice my partial shots, so I'm reasonably comfortable taking something less than a full swing.

The moral of the story is twofold....get as close as you can for a comfortable confident shot, and work on your partial shots so you can get closer and still be comfortable and confident.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Moxley said:

It sounds like a good tip, because there is always a club and shot percentage combination that most players will be comfortable executing with high reliability.

 For the vast majority of golfers, it is more beneficial to get as close to the green as possible. They will find they are more likely to hit the green on their next shot. That is the ultimate goal for any golfer.

10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I try to avoid severe slopes, they can make controlling the shot more difficult.  I also practice my partial shots, so I'm reasonably comfortable taking something less than a full swing.

Yea, I had this issue yesterday. The course was playing super firm. You'd hit an approach shot and it would bounce a 2-3 feet in the air. Very hard to get the ball to stop close with out playing for a good amount of roll out.

[David in FL]

Get as close as you can.

I'm a relatively short hitter, and, as I pull 3-wood on a par-5, someone will occasionally ask if "I'm going for it".  My response is that I always go for it.  I just don't get there very often! 

Closer is better.

[Grinde6]

The only time I play to a certain distance is on a par 5 when I am not going for the green.  I will then lay up to a comfortable distance, usually anywhere 90-120 yards.  I don't mind being closer, and if the conditions (softer greens) are right I will lay up closer in the 50-70 yard range.  The reason I don't like laying up to the 50-70 yard range every time is that sometimes the greens aren't as receptive on those short shots and don't spin as much.  I know in the 90-120 range I can usually control the spin.

[klineka]

I really think about this on par 5s. I do not hit my long irons well, so if I'm for example 240 yards out after my tee shot, I would hit a short iron, something that would go 150-160, to leave me with a full lob wedge into the green. My miss with a 3 wood, 3 hybrid, 4 iron is significantly greater than what it is with an 8 iron. The long iron/wood could go as far as 30 yards left or right, plus I tend to top those long irons alot as well only 50 yards or so. My shot zone with an 8 iron is significantly smaller, probably only 30 yards total left/right misses. 

In my opinion, I feel more comfortable standing in the middle of the fairway at 95 yds hitting a full lob wedge than I do 20 yards left and short of the green in the rough, having to carry a bunker to get on the green.

That being said, I do make it a point to practice my long irons and 3 woods when I am at the range, but I feel that leaving myself the 100% lob wedge from the middle of the fairway gives me the best chance to score right now, but that is due to a glaring weakness in my game, long irons and 3 wood from the fairway.

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

as I pull 3-wood on a par-5, someone will occasionally ask if "I'm going for it".  My response is that I always go for it.  I just don't get there very often! 

As someone who has been on in two on a par-5 once in his life, I'm using this line.  

OP:  learn how to hit your partial distances.  Being closer does no good if you're guessing any more than being 125 out and not knowing what club to hit would be.  Take a dozen or so balls and your highest loft wedge. Swing back until the shaft is parallel to the ground (the first time), then forward the same amount.  See how far the balls go.  Record the information and repeat with your other wedges.  Repeat with swinging back and through until your lead arm is parallel to the ground.

One of my favorite distances to be is 45 yards out because it's the second described swing with my 50 degree wedge.  For some reason I hit this more consistently than the 35 yard shot, same swing, 56 degree wedge.  But I'll still try to get it as close as possible. 

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Grinde6 said:

The only time I play to a certain distance is on a par 5 when I am not going for the green.  I will then lay up to a comfortable distance, usually anywhere 90-120 yards.  I don't mind being closer, and if the conditions (softer greens) are right I will lay up closer in the 50-70 yard range.  The reason I don't like laying up to the 50-70 yard range every time is that sometimes the greens aren't as receptive on those short shots and don't spin as much.  I know in the 90-120 range I can usually control the spin.

Well…

8 hours ago, klineka said:

I really think about this on par 5s. I do not hit my long irons well, so if I'm for example 240 yards out after my tee shot, I would hit a short iron, something that would go 150-160, to leave me with a full lob wedge into the green. My miss with a 3 wood, 3 hybrid, 4 iron is significantly greater than what it is with an 8 iron. The long iron/wood could go as far as 30 yards left or right, plus I tend to top those long irons alot as well only 50 yards or so. My shot zone with an 8 iron is significantly smaller, probably only 30 yards total left/right misses. 

In my opinion, I feel more comfortable standing in the middle of the fairway at 95 yds hitting a full lob wedge than I do 20 yards left and short of the green in the rough, having to carry a bunker to get on the green.

That being said, I do make it a point to practice my long irons and 3 woods when I am at the range, but I feel that leaving myself the 100% lob wedge from the middle of the fairway gives me the best chance to score right now, but that is due to a glaring weakness in my game, long irons and 3 wood from the fairway.

The both of you may very well be the exceptions to the rule, but you probably owe it to yourself to make sure that your perceptions are aligned with reality.

I've studied enough golfers and have enough statistics to know that I'd take that bet all day, every day, and win a LOT more often than I'd lose.

@klineka, you miss the green entirely from 95 yards (with a full lob wedge?) more often than you think. And you hit it to the fringe, or 45 feet away, more often than you think.

[Hardspoon]

There are a few different types of decisions being talked about in this thread.

Laying up shorter to avoid greenside hazards:  I'll do that.  If I can't get to a green anyway, no reason to hit a shot that goes 10 yards further but brings two front bunkers into play or something.  However, this is really rare...probably doesn't even come up once a round.

Laying up shorter to use a shorter, more accurate club: I'll do this if the longer club brings some hazard into play, but this is also pretty rare in terms of layups.  It's much more likely to affect the initial decision on whether to lay up at all, not the spot I lay up to.

Laying up shorter to hit a "more comfortable" shot: I used to do this, but I stopped cold-turkey after reading Lowest Score Wins.  Here's the thing: I'm infinitely "more comfortable" over a 105-yard shot (full sand wedge) than I am over a 60-foot pitch shot.  But...that 60-foot shot is getting closer to the pin, on average...so who gives a s--t if I'm "comfortable"?

And, if I truly found that those 60-yard pitch shots were ending up further from the pin, I'd just focus my practice time on that for a few weeks.  Given that it's a much easier skill than the full swing shots, I'd see quicker gains doing that than I would with other practice...it'd be an easy efficiency to exploit.

 

[klineka]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

@klineka, you miss the green entirely from 95 yards (with a full lob wedge?) more often than you think. And you hit it to the fringe, or 45 feet away, more often than you think.

While I do know that I dont get on the green every time when I lay up to that distance, I feel that doing the laying up strategy basically guarantees me a couple of things. First, hitting an 8 or 9 iron with my 2nd shot makes sure I have no chance of going out of bounds (if its a hole where that applies). Second, I am much more comfortable and hit short irons much more consistently than a long iron or hybrid. Do I hit some long irons and hybrids 200+ and straight? Yes, but that also brings into play the potential for huge misses in both directions, as well as thinned shots and topped shots that may only advance the ball 50 yards or less.

The way I am approaching it right now, being in the fairway with a full swing of the easiest club for me to hit (lob wedge) is better than either A being 30 yds left on another fairway having to pitch back onto the green (its happened this summer) or B topping the 2nd shot only 50 yards and then still being 180-190 yds out with not a very good chance of reaching the green. Both of those scenarios happen more often than a straight shot of 200+ do for me.

I feel like hitting a 3 wood or hybrid for me 2nd can bring a potential 7 into play, with the only upside being if I hit a great shot with the wood/hybrid, then I'd have a 30-40 yd pitch into the green. Hitting 8 or 9 iron then lob wedge brings at worst a 6 into play, with knowing that a shot on the green and 2 putts at worst is a par. 

All that being said, I only play this way right now because of how inconsistent and unpredictable my hybrid and 3 wood are from the fairway. I certainly see the value in advancing the ball as far as possible, and I'm sure I will understand it even more once I read LSW. I dont intend to play this way forever, and I do hope there will be a time when my swing is consistent enough to make those misses with the long clubs smaller. Does my line of thinking make sense, or am I still statistically better off to just hit it as far as I can and live with the results, even if its huge misses or tops?

[Hardspoon]

13 minutes ago, klineka said:

I feel like hitting a 3 wood or hybrid for me 2nd can bring a potential 7 into play, with the only upside being if I hit a great shot with the wood/hybrid, then I'd have a 30-40 yd pitch into the green. Hitting 8 or 9 iron then lob wedge brings at worst a 6 into play, with knowing that a shot on the green and 2 putts at worst is a par. 

@iacas is better qualified to comment on your post overall, but I did have one note on the above.

Remember, your goal (unless it's a hole in match play or the 18th to break 80 or something) is to lower your average score.  The idea behind LSW is that for most golfers, that 7 is outweighed by the incremental advantages (sometimes 1/2 stroke, sometimes 1/4, whatever) that you get the times when you do hit even a decent shot with the longer club.

[Golfingdad]

12 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

No, I try and get the ball as close to the green as possible without putting myself in trouble.  

 

12 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

This is the traditional wisdom for laying up, get to a "good yardage", commonly a full swing wedge of some kind.  Newer statistically-driven strategy would suggest you try to get as close as possible while still avoiding trouble, as @jsgolfer suggests.  For me, I also try to get as close as I can, while taking "trouble" out of play if possible.  Of course, this decision can change with other factors.  If the pin is in the front of a green, and the green is really firm, I may want to be at a distance where I can spin the ball to a stop, meaning a bit further back.  I try to avoid severe slopes, they can make controlling the shot more difficult.  I also practice my partial shots, so I'm reasonably comfortable taking something less than a full swing.

The moral of the story is twofold....get as close as you can for a comfortable confident shot, and work on your partial shots so you can get closer and still be comfortable and confident.

Really dumb ideas, these two.  Particularly the second one.  I don't know what they're smoking.  The correct answer is to be as risky as possible and lay back to at least 110-115 yards whenever possible.  More than that is better.  Do both of those, all the time, and you're golden.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* (There is a small chance I'm completely making shit up and messing with these two because they are the enemy come Newport Cup time, but it's only a small chance.  You be the judge.) 

[onthehunt526]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Well…

The both of you may very well be the exceptions to the rule, but you probably owe it to yourself to make sure that your perceptions are aligned with reality.

I've studied enough golfers and have enough statistics to know that I'd take that bet all day, every day, and win a LOT more often than I'd lose.

@klineka, you miss the green entirely from 95 yards (with a full lob wedge?) more often than you think. And you hit it to the fringe, or 45 feet away, more often than you think.

I miss more greens than I care to comment on from 95 yards... I'd much rather be closer than that almost always. 

That being said, there is a par-5 at Newman where, with my normal drive's shot zone, I CAN clear the ditch short of the green with a hybrid or 3-wood, but the left side of my shot zone is in the hazard, when I do try to carry the hazard I aim at the center of the green and my normal shot puts me in the approach about 40 yards short of the green.

There is no ideal lay-up distance, it's namely advance it as far as you safely can without getting into trouble... Sometimes that's 50 yards sometimes it's 200 yards, wherever the lightest colored egg is. Avoid hazards and penalties and advance your ball.

[Missouri Swede]

Agreeing with most of the above, I'll just quote myself (satirical):

 

[JonMA1]

When I'm laying up, it's more about the risk of which club will get me as close as possible without putting myself in danger than it is going for a specific distance. It's also dependent on how tight the layup area is and from where I'm hitting to that layup area. Sometime it means laying up to a spot longer than 100 yards. Other times it's hitting a long iron right at the green and hoping it rolls up very close.

I don't believe I've ever thought to myself "damn it, now I'm too close. I'll never make that 40 yarder!" I'm in the closer is better as long as it's safe camp.

This may lack credibility coming from someone who scores as poorly as I do, but IMO it's very beneficial to work on hitting the green from any distance that requires a partial swing. Unless of course you're good enough to hit layups to the exact distance needed every time, and also good enough to hit that specific approach shot every time. Anyone who's that skilled is likely good enough to develop a decent partial swing.

As far as getting hitting greens from a variety of distances, for some it may be more pre-determined on which club they use, how far they grip down, and how much of a backswing they make. 

I'm probably too lazy to develop a system like that. I look at the distance, make a couple practice swings of what I think is needed, and hope I've guessed right.

[Shindig]

6 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

Laying up shorter to hit a "more comfortable" shot: I used to do this, but I stopped cold-turkey after reading Lowest Score Wins.  Here's the thing: I'm infinitely "more comfortable" over a 105-yard shot (full sand wedge) than I am over a 60-foot pitch shot.  But...that 60-foot shot is getting closer to the pin, on average...so who gives a s--t if I'm "comfortable"?

And, if I truly found that those 60-yard pitch shots were ending up further from the pin, I'd just focus my practice time on that for a few weeks.  Given that it's a much easier skill than the full swing shots, I'd see quicker gains doing that than I would with other practice...it'd be an easy efficiency to exploit.

You could also practice it a few times in your next few range sessions just to be more comfortable with the shot itself.

[b101]

4 minutes ago, Shindig said:

You could also practice it a few times in your next few range sessions just to be more comfortable with the shot itself.

There's no issue with practising the shot, so that you are comfortable for when you end up in that yardage - it's the idea of laying up to that specific yardage that's not helpful, really. If you can advance it safely, do so.

The thing that cracks me up with this idea (for us amateurs) is that whilst we can't accurately control our wedges to within 10, 20 yards at best on approach shots under 100 yards, we would have no issues with a lay up to a yardage of 73 yards using a 7 or 8 iron, including fairway roll, strike, curvature etc. Even the pros won't get it perfect... It's just madness, the more you think about it.

Frankly, if you're good enough to be able to do it, you definitely shouldn't be doing it.

Edited August 5, 2017 by b101