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Tough hole vs Gimmick


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Three holes sharing a common green?

A par 6 or par 7 hole?

Playing a hole with a sudden drop of elevation from the tee area on to a fairway 50 yards below?

Playing golf on a course situation at the amazon jungle of south America or perhaps on Greenland...if golf courses exist in such places.

Gimmicks or just exotic golf.  BTW par 6 and par 7 holes are legal and exist somewhere.  I just don't remember where.


  On 11/29/2017 at 7:24 PM, rehmwa said:

US Open - Was it Chambers Bay where some of the holes we'd see that a shot clear off to one side or the back was needed to then allow the ball to roller coaster (mini-golf) along a weird roll back to get to the hole?

So that's a 'gimmick' when you need special knowledge in order to take advantage of a cutesy layout....

Personally, I found that amazingly entertaining, but not a hole I'd like to play the first time, but love to come back and play 'again' once I've seen some of the 'tricks' to play the course.......

For pros, that's great, they do their homework and map the greens and everything and get practice rounds, etc, but for just a regular player, it's nice to be able to conceivably play a round with just a course map and eyeballs and a range finder.

 

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Isn’t that basically what links golf is all about?

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Okay, I have one.  There's a course I play often in North Carolina, and they have a par-5 that has a big tree right in the middle of the fairway about 200 yards out.   If you can carry your drive about 270, you can easily clear the tree, but the average golfer like me, who carries a drive 200-220, has to aim for the tree and hope he doesn't hit it.  Last time I played, I hit the trunk of the tree.  To me, if a perfect shot is penalized from sheer luck, that is a gimmick. 

Not that I want them to cut the tree.  It's a beautiful old tree. 

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  On 11/28/2017 at 7:02 PM, iacas said:

Eh, par is just a number. Oakmont has a 300-yard par three, after all.

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It would be interesting to see and play a golf course without a par for every hole. I wonder how it would affect the way we play. If it was a course already made for the par setup, you'd be able to guess most of the pars, but what about a course that was designed and created without par in mind at all?

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I guess (in my opinion) that any par 5 that you don't really have a chance to get to in two strokes in kind of gimmicky. It is probably because I just hate those kind of holes. There is local course that I go play occasionally that actually has a couple of those kinds of holes. One of them requires that you hit a driver to get around one dogleg but if you hit it slightly too far...you have to hit a short iron over some trees to a fairway that you can't see. It just looks like they ran out of room for the hole.

  On 11/30/2017 at 10:32 AM, Marty2019 said:

Okay, I have one.  There's a course I play often in North Carolina, and they have a par-5 that has a big tree right in the middle of the fairway about 200 yards out.   If you can carry your drive about 270, you can easily clear the tree, but the average golfer like me, who carries a drive 200-220, has to aim for the tree and hope he doesn't hit it.  Last time I played, I hit the trunk of the tree.  To me, if a perfect shot is penalized from sheer luck, that is a gimmick. 

Not that I want them to cut the tree.  It's a beautiful old tree. 

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That's funny. We had a hole like that at the golf course that I used to work at. I would hit the ball all over the place until I got to that hole and I would inevitably hit my greatest drive of the day right into that tree. One Sunday I showed up for work in the morning and the superintendent came into the shop and said the tree was dead. It literally died overnight. I think that hole (#17) cost many of the gamblers some serious money. Someone finally took care of it. As much as it bothered my, I hated to see that tree go. 

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  On 11/30/2017 at 1:34 PM, Bucki1968 said:

We had a hole like that at the golf course that I used to work at. I would hit the ball all over the place until I got to that hole and I would inevitably hit my greatest drive of the day right into that tree. One Sunday I showed up for work in the morning and the superintendent came into the shop and said the tree was dead. It literally died overnight. I think that hole (#17) cost many of the gamblers some serious money. Someone finally took care of it. As much as it bothered my, I hated to see that tree go. 

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Somebody assassinated the tree!  That's funny. 

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  On 11/29/2017 at 11:13 PM, GST1974 said:

Three holes sharing a common green?

A par 6 or par 7 hole?

Playing a hole with a sudden drop of elevation from the tee area on to a fairway 50 yards below?

Playing golf on a course situation at the amazon jungle of south America or perhaps on Greenland...if golf courses exist in such places.

Gimmicks or just exotic golf.  BTW par 6 and par 7 holes are legal and exist somewhere.  I just don't remember where.

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I'll agree that the three holes sharing a common green is gimmicky in my opinion.

I dont think a par 6/7 hole or one with a sudden drop of elevation from the tee area is gimmicky at all.

If the hole is a par 6 just because its 650 or 700 yards but it is set up like a traditional hole, then there is nothing gimmicky about it, that just means you have one additional shot to get GIR with, at the expense of adding 150+ yards. 

As for the extreme elevation drop, some of my favorite holes have big drops. I prefer a huge elevation drop off the tee compared to hitting a blind tee shot up a hill. Look at this picture below. This is the 18th hole at the Denison Golf Club, where we did one round in August in an outing with @iacas and others from this site. I dont consider this gimmicky at all, and a few of us were taking pictures and enjoying the view before taking our tee shots. You tee off from the red square I drew, and the fairway was very wide open, the hole plays around 350-360 from the back tees. It was cool to watch your ball sail for what felt like forever, but then you were able to track in the entire way and see exactly where it landed (lets just forget about my first drive there which I popped up and didnt quite make it to the bottom of the hill.. yikes). The second pic is one that @vasaribm snapped of us in the tee box. I dont consider this gimmicky at all and is one of my favorite holes in the central Ohio area.                                           5a200ce2c2ada_18thhole.jpg.1f8743cac097b4c67ca140cae0c5f02c.jpg18.thumb.jpg.69018a71054b5185836ec585460405e8.jpg

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(edited)

Klineka, I don't necessarily view "gimmicks" as bad.  Just exotic or uncommon.  I like golf courses with lots of scenery, etc.  I guess a true gimmick would be a hole with artificial difficulty added to it that seems unreasonable to any decent player.  A hole that requires more luck than skill. And that would seem especially true if the difficulty added goes against the overall course design architecture.

Edited by GST1974

  On 11/30/2017 at 1:34 PM, Bucki1968 said:

I guess (in my opinion) that any par 5 that you don't really have a chance to get to in two strokes in kind of gimmicky. It is probably because I just hate those kind of holes. There is local course that I go play occasionally that actually has a couple of those kinds of holes. One of them requires that you hit a driver to get around one dogleg but if you hit it slightly too far...you have to hit a short iron over some trees to a fairway that you can't see. It just looks like they ran out of room for the hole.

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I don't mind really long par 5's that require you to make a risk/reward on your lay up. Maybe it requires a good shot to have a wedge shot in, but you can lay back to 120 yards for safety. I like options.

I do not like par 5's that basically have only one option.

  On 11/30/2017 at 1:57 PM, klineka said:

I'll agree that the three holes sharing a common green is gimmicky in my opinion.

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I don't mind shared greens. I never seen on a course that had 3 holes sharing a green. I've seen a few where two holes share a green.

 

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I know par is just a number.....but would you consider any par6 as a gimmick? There's a course close-by (never played it) that has a par6 hole. 

Plays as 751, 677, and 620 yards......549 for women. Aerials show it as being pretty straightforward, no bunkers until the green, and seems like regular fairway widths.

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(edited)
  On 11/30/2017 at 4:38 PM, cutchemist42 said:

I know par is just a number.....but would you consider any par6 as a gimmick? There's a course close-by (never played it) that has a par6 hole. 

Plays as 751, 677, and 620 yards......549 for women. Aerials show it as being pretty straightforward, no bunkers until the green, and seems like regular fairway widths.

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In my opinion, no, I dont think thats a gimmick, especially since it appears to be pretty straightforward with no bunkers until the green. Its just longer that most holes, but the par is also higher than most holes. I'd like to play that hole.

I have come across a few holes around me that are over 600 yards and they are par 5s. Ive hit a solid drive, solid 3 wood, and still had a 7 iron into the green which is fully exposed to full sun and is one of the most baked and firmest greens on the course. I dont consider it gimmicky, just difficult.

Edited by klineka
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  On 11/30/2017 at 4:38 PM, cutchemist42 said:

I know par is just a number.....but would you consider any par6 as a gimmick? There's a course close-by (never played it) that has a par6 hole. 

Plays as 751, 677, and 620 yards......549 for women. Aerials show it as being pretty straightforward, no bunkers until the green, and seems like regular fairway widths.

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Personally, I don't think I've seen a par-6 that I liked, and I've seen very few.  With a par 5, there are often choices to be made.  With a par-6, its simply a slog, hitting it as far as possible for 3 consecutive shots.  Maybe I just haven't seen the right one, but I don't like them.  I'd classify most as either gimmicks, or lazy architecture.

There's another class of gimmick in my mind, holes with completely blind shots to greens.  I don't mean an uphill shot where you can only see part of the flag, I mean completely blind.  Oddly enough, I enjoy these when they're on a historic course like Lahinch in Ireland.  I'll be playing another this summer at Prestwick in Scotland.  These are great in context, but for a modern architect to design a hole that way would be a gimmick in to me.  The same goes for a green with a bunker i the middle of it.  This is OK at Riviera, but when I saw one at Doonbeg in Ireland (a Greg Norman design) I thought it was just silly.  Based on Google Earth, that hole has been redesigned, as well as a few others.

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  On 11/30/2017 at 11:29 AM, Zeph said:

It would be interesting to see and play a golf course without a par for every hole. I wonder how it would affect the way we play. If it was a course already made for the par setup, you'd be able to guess most of the pars, but what about a course that was designed and created without par in mind at all?

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Interesting concept.  I think that would be fun.

 

  On 11/30/2017 at 1:34 PM, Bucki1968 said:

I guess (in my opinion) that any par 5 that you don't really have a chance to get to in two strokes in kind of gimmicky. It is probably because I just hate those kind of holes. There is local course that I go play occasionally that actually has a couple of those kinds of holes. One of them requires that you hit a driver to get around one dogleg but if you hit it slightly too far...you have to hit a short iron over some trees to a fairway that you can't see. It just looks like they ran out of room for the hole.

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That would be just about every par 5 ever created for me. :~(  I'd have to dispute that.  To me, that's like saying that any par 4 that can't be reached in one is gimmicky.  There is a reason that they call it "Par 5". ;-)

Most of the holes that I've played which might qualify as a gimmick, are more due to poor design than to any intent to trick up the hole.  Others are dictated by the terrain that the designer was given to use, which is often the least useful land in a residential development. 

There is a course here (Fossil Trace) which has a par 5 hole with 3 stone monoliths in the middle of the fairway.  There were mandated to remain due to scientific concerns.  The entire area is rich in fossils, so in order to build the course, they had to ensure that no paleontological records were damaged during construction.  That left behind these huge stone ridges, some of which were necessarily in the fairway. 

The hole is still quite playable, so I don't really call it gimmicky, although some of my friends do.  You can see the fairway angling off to the right, and the big stone mid fairway, well beyond the typical driving distance for most players (387 yards from the regular blue men's tee), and 2 smaller stones right and beyond the big one.  The big block usually comes into play on the second shot, especially when that shot is played a bit low in an attempt to reach in 2.  

i-HLW2pJR.jpg

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  On 11/30/2017 at 1:34 PM, Bucki1968 said:

I guess (in my opinion) that any par 5 that you don't really have a chance to get to in two strokes in kind of gimmicky. It is probably because I just hate those kind of holes. There is local course that I go play occasionally that actually has a couple of those kinds of holes. One of them requires that you hit a driver to get around one dogleg but if you hit it slightly too far...you have to hit a short iron over some trees to a fairway that you can't see. It just looks like they ran out of room for the hole.

That's funny. We had a hole like that at the golf course that I used to work at. I would hit the ball all over the place until I got to that hole and I would inevitably hit my greatest drive of the day right into that tree. One Sunday I showed up for work in the morning and the superintendent came into the shop and said the tree was dead. It literally died overnight. I think that hole (#17) cost many of the gamblers some serious money. Someone finally took care of it. As much as it bothered my, I hated to see that tree go. 

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If you could always get to par-5's, they'd be par-4's....

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Gimmick (not the dictionary definition, but my "golf hole" definition): a hole which favors luck or is "goofy" in some way that devalues skill beyond an amount deemed acceptable.

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Forgive me, but I don't know of a course design element that could be considered a gimmick (probably due to my inexperience with a variety of courses.)

I've played courses with trees and bunkers in the middle of fairways and a couple other examples listed above. But I've parred those holes never thought of them as anything but difficult. I've always just accepted those obstacles as part of the design. For me, it only adds the need for a slightly different strategy. I kind of like those types of challenges.

I guess an example of "tough" would be a par 5 dog leg that requires a short tee shot and then a long 2nd and 3rd shot. But even on that hole, a player with enough distance and control could hit a long slice and be left with 250 yard 2nd shot to the green. Certainly a hole few of us higher cappers could reach in 2, but not what I'd call a gimmick.

The fairway bunkers alongside the 15th hole of Oakmont are unique, but not what I'd call a gimmick, just a weird design. The would scare the heck out of me (because I'd never get out) and would require I do what's necessary to avoid them.

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  On 12/3/2017 at 12:59 AM, David in FL said:

If you could always get to par-5's, they'd be par-4's....

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I guess I didn't explain it they way I meant it...I would call a par 5 "gimmicky" if it requires me to hit a club off the tee other than driver, then require me to hit a lay up shot (with a short iron) in order to hit another short iron into the green. There are a few golf courses (in the Tampa area) where this is the case. It's essentially three par threes turned into a par 5. It always looks like the course designer ran out of room for a good hole.

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  On 12/3/2017 at 5:45 PM, JonMA1 said:

I've played courses with trees and bunkers in the middle of fairways and a couple other examples listed above. But I've parred those holes never thought of them as anything but difficult. I've always just accepted those obstacles as part of the design. For me, it only adds the need for a slightly different strategy. I kind of like those types of challenges.

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I think a good example of gimmicky is a blind tee shot were you have no clue were to aim. Especially if they don't give you any landmarks like tree's that would define the layout of the hole.

There isn't many golf holes I would consider gimmicky.

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Note: This thread is 2628 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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