Is Joe LaCava Tiger's Best Choice of Caddie?

[Vinsk]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

Masters 2019: The secret advice Tiger Woods' caddie Joe LaCava gave

---

After a three-putt bogey at No. 5, Tiger Woods’ caddie Joe LaCava pulled him aside. ’I just listened,’ Woods said.

Finally, news of Joey doing something to give Tiger a kick in the ass. I feel like Tiger plays best when he's challenged. Joey needs to challenge him more, perhaps. Good things seem to happen.

Totally agree.

24 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Also mere speculation and your perception of events.  I'm making an assumption, but I doubt you have "inside the ropes" knowledge and even further, "inside the relationship between Tiger and his caddy (both on and off the course)" knowledge to make an objective estimation.  Tiger could've won with ME on the bag.

Did you read @iacas post from the previous page? And FWIW I think Erik may have some inside info that we don’t. Either way, we’re just suggesting some thoughts on what we’ve seen and heard. Joe in the recent past has appeared to be not much more than a bag boy compared to the interactions we’ve seen with Bones/Phil and Na’s caddy,  Kisner’s caddy,  Rham’s caddy. That’s why is good to hear Joe made a move with Tiger other than, ‘here’s your club Tiger...you thirsty?’ 

[Beastie]

From The Guardian ( paper in the UK)

“Woods credited LaCava with a key role in his one-shot Masters victory. The pair had a discussion after a dropped shot at the 5th hole on Sunday, during which the caddie urged Woods to “not carry the weight of the world on your shoulders”. LaCava added: “I didn’t put in all the hard work. I didn’t have all the surgeries. I wasn’t down in Florida grinding. So for me, it’s easy. I just show up, try to do a halfway decent job and he has to do all the tough work.””

[iacas]

Okay, @Beastie… what about it? I linked to a similar article above, so I’m aware of these feelings.

[Beastie]

Just now, iacas said:

Okay, @Beastie… what about it? I linked to a similar article above, so I’m aware of these feelings.

I hadn’t seen your post, but had just read the article containing this quote and it was pertinent to the discussion. I thought it might be of interest. I voted “No” by the way. 

[ncates00]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Totally agree.

Did you read @iacas post from the previous page? And FWIW I think Erik may have some inside info that we don’t. Either way, we’re just suggesting some thoughts on what we’ve seen and heard. Joe in the recent past has appeared to be not much more than a bag boy compared to the interactions we’ve seen with Bones/Phil and Na’s caddy,  Kisner’s caddy,  Rham’s caddy. That’s why is good to hear Joe made a move with Tiger other than, ‘here’s your club Tiger...you thirsty?’ 

Maybe, but the whole "challenge Tiger" just seems silly.  I will, however, concede that perhaps I don't understand what is meant by that or perhaps he's unclear on this point.  To me, you just need someone someone that you click with--whatever that means.  Maybe that means someone to "challenge" you.  Golf is hard enough by itself; just get someone who you get along with and can carry a professional relationship with that you can trust.  I don't think caddies are required to challenge the player's ego.  Tiger knows what he wants and he has the whole lot to pick from.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

appeared to be

Again, that's your perception.  Easy to armchair quarterback watching CBS or even going to an event and watching.  That's still judging from afar.  We're not there with them with any firsthand knowledge.  Even if what you say is true, maybe that's what Tiger wants.  At the end of the day, Tiger will do what's best for him.  You think if he thought Joe was slacking he would keep him? 

Edited April 16, 2019 by ncates00

[ncates00]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

compared to the interactions we’ve seen with Bones/Phil and Na’s caddy,  Kisner’s caddy,  Rham’s caddy

You have two big logical leaps here: 1) you cannot presume to have enough firsthand knowledge to deem these interactions as best for the player.  You don't see each and every interaction between player and caddy.  2) Nor do you know whether they are effective or not in helping the player play better.  At best, you're guessing in my opinion.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

You have two big logical leaps here: 1) you cannot presume to have enough firsthand knowledge to deem these interactions as best for the player.  You don't see each and every interaction between player and caddy.  2) Nor do you know whether they are effective or not in helping the player play better.  At best, you're guessing in my opinion.

The whole topic is mostly speculation.

I mean, duh, right?

[chspeed]

48 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

You have two big logical leaps here: 1) you cannot presume to have enough firsthand knowledge to deem these interactions as best for the player.  You don't see each and every interaction between player and caddy.  2) Nor do you know whether they are effective or not in helping the player play better.  At best, you're guessing in my opinion.

 

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

The whole topic is mostly speculation.

I mean, duh, right? 

@iacas you crack me up. That is almost word-for-word a post you might have written had @ncates00 started this thread. 😉

Anyway, it's been written in various books and interviews (e.g. Haney's book) that Tiger surrounds himself with sycophants and yes-men, and while he may respect those close to him who either push back or take away from his spotlight, he ultimately doesn't keep them around for long.

Assuming that LaCava is more the yes-man type (or at least behaves that way on the course), perhaps a Tiger with a more forceful personality would lead to fewer strategy mistakes on the course. But it might also distract Tiger's execution, leading to a poorer outcome.

Anyway, I think it's interesting to bring this up right after he just won. Firing LaCava after a win is something I can totally see the Tiger of old doing.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

You have two big logical leaps here: 1) you cannot presume to have enough firsthand knowledge to deem these interactions as best for the player.  You don't see each and every interaction between player and caddy.  2) Nor do you know whether they are effective or not in helping the player play better.  At best, you're guessing in my opinion.

As are you, yes. That’s not the point of this discussion. As @iacas said it’s speculation. That’s why he asked the question and thus the title of this discussion. 

Sometimes what a player wants isn’t the best decision. John Rham may have won a tournament had he listened to his caddy. Stevie was sure as hell not a ‘yes man’ and I’d say 11 majors (?) doesn’t put him as a ‘won’t last long guy’.

Tiger has certainly shown times when he needed to be calmed, re-focused, motivated, whatever. Just about any professional athlete has these moments. And up until the article Erik posted I hadn’t seen Joe nor did appear to be one to do just that. 

Again this is all my opinion only. So what? Nobody is right or wrong here. It’s just a discussion. If you think Joe is the dalai Lama of caddies great. I don’t. I’ve said why. 

[jlbos83]

I just voted no, which feels really silly, considering.  And given how hardheaded (we believe) Tiger is, it might not matter.  But it does feel that LaCava is quite passive.  Of course we don't know what's going on in the quiet conversations, and it really isn't our business.  It does seem that Sunday Tiger was really playing smart once the tournament was in his grasp.  Did Joey contribute to that?  I don't have any idea.  Perhaps Tiger has become even more of a thinker than he was previously, which could be a bad thing for everyone else.  I have no doubt that he could have played 18 more aggressively, but he knew before his second shot that 5 was good enough, and he made darn sure that 6 was not in the cards.

Concluding, though, Tiger 2019 knows more about his game than anyone else on the planet.  He knows what he can do, and it seems he actually knows what he can't do.  He seems to actually be able to play within those limitations.  And, really, who knows more about playing championship golf than Tiger?  Perhaps all he needs is someone to carry his clubs, snacks, and gum?

[TRUCKER]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

🤦‍♂️

😆

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

 

@iacas you crack me up. That is almost word-for-word a post you might have written had @ncates00 started this thread. 😉

Anyway, it's been written in various books and interviews (e.g. Haney's book) that Tiger surrounds himself with sycophants and yes-men, and while he may respect those close to him who either push back or take away from his spotlight, he ultimately doesn't keep them around for long.

Assuming that LaCava is more the yes-man type (or at least behaves that way on the course), perhaps a Tiger with a more forceful personality would lead to fewer strategy mistakes on the course. But it might also distract Tiger's execution, leading to a poorer outcome.

Anyway, I think it's interesting to bring this up right after he just won. Firing LaCava after a win is something I can totally see the Tiger of old doing.

I've listened to Haney's book 4X. So I don't know what Hank Haney book you read that you could have possibly come to the conclusion that Tiger "surrounds himself with sycophants and yes men". Butch wasn't a yes man, Haney wasn't a yes man, Steve wasn't a yes man, Tigers agent isn't a yes man. So who are these yes men you've read about that Tiger surrounded himself with? I voted No. 

[chspeed]

2 hours ago, TRUCKER said:

😆

I've listened to Haney's book 4X. So I don't know what Hank Haney book you read that you could have possibly come to the conclusion that Tiger "surrounds himself with sycophants and yes men". Butch wasn't a yes man, Haney wasn't a yes man, Steve wasn't a yes man, Tigers agent isn't a yes man. So who are these yes men you've read about that Tiger surrounded himself with? I voted No. 

No, no. I agree, those aren't yes-men. The point I was trying, perhaps not well,  is that those like Haney and Butch and Steve weren't kept around fwhen the fact that they disagreed with him was made public.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, chspeed said:

@iacas you crack me up. That is almost word-for-word a post you might have written had @ncates00 started this thread. 😉

Not it's not. This entire thread is speculation. In my OP, I said that even Tiger and Joey can't know if they're the best for each other because there aren't alternative universes to try out infinite combinations. For all you know, you @chspeed would be the best caddie.

3 hours ago, chspeed said:

Anyway, it's been written in various books and interviews (e.g. Haney's book) that Tiger surrounds himself with sycophants and yes-men

Uhhhh… I'm with @TRUCKER on that one.

And Stevie Williams was not a yes-man or a sycophant.

3 hours ago, chspeed said:

Assuming that LaCava is more the yes-man type (or at least behaves that way on the course), perhaps a Tiger with a more forceful personality would lead to fewer strategy mistakes on the course. But it might also distract Tiger's execution, leading to a poorer outcome.

Like when he had Stevie on the bag? Oh, wait…

[uitar9]

Interesting thread. These caddies are around the tour and the pro's all the time, used to all of the pressure ...but...carrying for Tiger must be a whole different ball game...the press...20 times the fans...distractions because its Tiger. Then having to read the golf situation of a legend...whoa! 

[chspeed]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

I said that even Tiger and Joey can't know if they're the best for each other because there aren't alternative universes to try out infinite combinations.

Do they have golf courses in the holodeck?

16 hours ago, iacas said:

For all you know, you @chspeed would be the best caddie.'

I am willing to try that alternative universe. I'll let you know.

 

16 hours ago, iacas said:

Like when he had Stevie on the bag? Oh, wait…

He may have one more if it was LaCava right? Back to the holodeck. 😜

[Zeph]

Tiger might want a different kind of caddie now than he did 15 years ago. He is older, more experienced, now has two kids and been through a rough decade. Even if he and Stevie were on good terms or if he could choose a Stevie-type he might still go for the Joey-type. Ultimately it might not matter much who's the caddie. 

Tiger seems in tune enough with what he's doing that I think he'd switch if he didn't find Joey to be a good fit. 

[BruceTeam]

Some people say Steve is abrasive, but I've met Steve and played golf with him and he is a kind, intelligent, and amiable person dedicated to his player. Steve has caddied for Peter Thompson, Greg Norman, Ray Floyd, Tiger, Adam Scott and has 150 wins on the tour almost double what any other caddy has done and is in the Caddy Hall of Fame. A so-called "abrasive person" could not accomplish what Steve has accomplished.

Like Tiger, Steve has achieved the height of his profession and is arguably the greatest caddy in the history of golf. Tiger or any other golfer would have the advantage to have Steve as his caddy but Steve is retired now and playing golf well in New Zealand with his mates for the Southhead GC Pennants Team.

Steve recently wrote an article for "Players Voice" about Tiger's Victory which everyone who is amazed at Tiger's comeback should read here > 

'The rule I broke for Tiger' by Steve Williams

---

Steve Williams wanted to see if Tiger Woods could make history at The Masters. So Tiger's former caddie broke the rule of a lifetime.

[turtleback]

I finally got to see the second Butler Cabin interview with just Tiger, Nick, and Nance.  I think his answer was interesting when he was asked about Joey -  he said that LaCava was the most loyal person you'd ever want to meet.  Maybe THAT is what he needs.  I'm sure that over his travails and even in the good years he had a lot of people show unfortunate true colors.  I would imagine that after all that, loyalty would be a highly valued quality in someone so deep in the inner circle.

Edited April 18, 2019 by turtleback