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How important are "micro grooves" to wedges?


golfjedi777
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Greetings all.

I've been using wedges that are 4 years old they still have good regular grooves but they don't have what these new wedges have right now I'mreferring to micro grooves. (Small Grooves in between main grooves)

 

Thanks for you guys help

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They aren’t important. They’re pretty irrelevant. Pure marketing? Almost.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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@iacas

Thanks appreciate the feedback

4 hours ago, iacas said:

They aren’t important. They’re pretty irrelevant. Pure marketing? Almost.

Thanks appreciate the feedback

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@iacaswould the same be true for the full face milling that we are starting to see on many wedges these days?

I'm upgrading my 60* so have been looking at full milled and wondering, in your experience/opinion they have any worthwhile advantages over good old fashioned grooves?

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1 hour ago, RussUK said:

@iacaswould the same be true for the full face milling that we are starting to see on many wedges these days?

I think it’s more about ensuring face flatness. The rules regarding grooves are fairly specific.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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3 hours ago, RussUK said:

@iacaswould the same be true for the full face milling that we are starting to see on many wedges these days?

I'm upgrading my 60* so have been looking at full milled and wondering, in your experience/opinion they have any worthwhile advantages over good old fashioned grooves?

The "milling" you see on clubfaces are simply tool marks left by the cutter head. I think people started associating them with quality or performance (think Scotty Cameron putters) so companies stopped polishing their clubs smooth. It's kind of funny because it saves them a step in the manufacturing process, as tool markings are generally considered unfinished.

As I understand it, they don't make a significant contribution to spin. Grooves affect spin because the edges grab the ball (less so now than with the old box grooves) and the void allows water and debris somewhere to go so you have cleaner face to ball contact, much like the treads on a tire.

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I find it fascinating that the golf industry is like my one industry in that companies are innovating and inventing new tech with the primary (often sole) purpose being to enhance perception rather than reality.

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I've got all sorts of wedges decorating the cave...from dot-faced, hickory shafted, faux antiques, to micro-grooved recent acquisitions.  The grooves, or lack of them, makes no appreciable difference.  I'd say it is much more important to have the proper heft, and bounce, than it is a particular configuration of grooves...non-conforming clubs aside.

In der bag:
Cleveland Hi-Bore driver, Maltby 5 wood, Maltby hybrid, Maltby irons and wedges (23 to 50) Vokey 59/07, Cleveland Niblick (LH-42), and a Maltby mallet putter.                                                                                                                                                 "When the going gets tough...it's tough to get going."

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm no expert. NEW (not warn out) wedges with microgroves IMO do make a difference.  I've got 1 yr old Cobra P & S wedges with about 38 rounds played. I just got volkey s7 50° & 60° wedges.

Using the same stroke I get about  the same rollout with both the 50 & 55. Using a  forward ball position I can get a hop and stop with the 50 (with groves) whereas no matter how I hit or where I place the ball I get 5 to 8 foot rollout from the 55.

I'm actually thinking of replacing the Cobra P & S with microgroved volkeys.

Edited by Carvendive
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My buddy just bought a "new" set of Cobra XL irons. I put new in quotes since these were a model year or two old, and the shop put them on sale for $340! We were going to play, and I found him on the range with the new irons in his bag. I asked if I could hit a few balls with them, and wow! They felt great! He told me the shop had a set or two left, so I went and snagged one the next day!

Anyway, during the round, he had a few occasions where he was trying to chip and run to a back pin position, Unfortunately, he was now enrolled in the two hops and stop program! This confused us for a while until we hit on an idea. He was playing with brand new clubs w/brand new grooves! They are as sharp as they're ever going to be. And they sure did get the ball to grab.

I noticed the same thing when I started playing them. Note, the wedges do NOT feature micro grooves. Before this I was gaming an older set of TM Burners.

I think it's just how new and sharp the grooves are that determines how much spin you'll get out of them. Don't know if shops offer groove re-sharpening, but I ran a Dremel diamond coated needle point bit down the grooves of my old Tommy Armour 855's, and it seemed to help.

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3 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Don't know if shops offer groove re-sharpening, but I ran a Dremel diamond coated needle point bit down the grooves of my old Tommy Armour 855's, and it seemed to help.

You might have made them non-conforming.

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IDK about the grooves thrmselves creating a lot of spin. Yes, they create some spin, but a proper swing technique, and a good clean lie, both contribute to getting maximum spin on the ball. Maybe more than the grooves. The right green surface will also help maximize what ever spin is on the ball. 

 I can remember a trick shot guy spinning balls backwards with what he showed as smooth faced club. (No grooves) I thought that was pretty cool, until I asked to see the club. What I saw was a sand blasted, some what rough club face. It was not what I would consider smooth.

Another guy in a video,, just as an expiriment, put some rough, non skid tape on the face of a wedge. That stuff you might use on steps to keep from slipping. He could get balls to check up nicely with the face tape, but couldn't with wedge with grooves. I assumed he did not have the right AoA into the ball when using a club with grooves. 

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10 hours ago, Patch said:

IDK about the grooves thrmselves creating a lot of spin. Yes, they create some spin, but a proper swing technique, and a good clean lie, both contribute to getting maximum spin on the ball. Maybe more than the grooves. The right green surface will also help maximize what ever spin is on the ball. 

 I can remember a trick shot guy spinning balls backwards with what he showed as smooth faced club. (No grooves) I thought that was pretty cool, until I asked to see the club. What I saw was a sand blasted, some what rough club face. It was not what I would consider smooth.

Another guy in a video,, just as an expiriment, put some rough, non skid tape on the face of a wedge. That stuff you might use on steps to keep from slipping. He could get balls to check up nicely with the face tape, but couldn't with wedge with grooves. I assumed he did not have the right AoA into the ball when using a club with grooves. 

I don't see the need to speculate here. This is science. We can get actual answers.

  • From clean, dry lies, up to about 30° or so, a flat (non-grooved) clubface generates almost the same amount of spin as a grooved one. With higher lofted clubs, even from clean, dry lies, grooves help quite a bit to generate spin.
  • From non-clean, non-dry lies (i.e. rough, water, debris, etc.), grooves dramatically improve spin by allowing more urethane-metal contact by channeling away debris, water, etc.
  • A legal amount of "micro texture" or "micro grooves" on the face of a wedge doesn't contribute a meaningful amount of spin to the ball or they'd be illegal. The equipment rules say that the face of a wedge must be flat.

b. Impact Area Roughness and Material 

Except for markings specified in the following paragraphs, the surface roughness within the area where impact is intended (the "impact area") must not exceed that of decorative sandblasting, or of fine milling (see Fig. X).

Note that it says decorative sandblasting. "Fine" milling. In other words, micro grooves are just marketing.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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21 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

You might have made them non-conforming.

That thought had occurred to me, but I wasn't playing in any sanctioned events.

20 hours ago, Patch said:

IDK about the grooves thrmselves creating a lot of spin. Yes, they create some spin, but a proper swing technique, and a good clean lie, both contribute to getting maximum spin on the ball. Maybe more than the grooves. The right green surface will also help maximize what ever spin is on the ball. 

 I can remember a trick shot guy spinning balls backwards with what he showed as smooth faced club. (No grooves) I thought that was pretty cool, until I asked to see the club. What I saw was a sand blasted, some what rough club face. It was not what I would consider smooth.

Another guy in a video,, just as an expiriment, put some rough, non skid tape on the face of a wedge. That stuff you might use on steps to keep from slipping. He could get balls to check up nicely with the face tape, but couldn't with wedge with grooves. I assumed he did not have the right AoA into the ball when using a club with grooves. 

Any properly struck golf shot will generate some backspin, even off of Driver faces that don't appear to have anything like a groove on them. Of course I remember some broadcast commentary from way back in the day, telling us that the pros put "overspin" on their Driver shots to increase roll out!

Uhhh, no! If they put overspin on it, the ball would dive out of the air like a gut shot duck! What the old pros were able to do, despite the lack of launch monitors, et al, was to come up with a combination of loft, clubhead speed, and ball type that allowed them to maximize distance.

This also reminds me of story told about Tommy Armour. He was questioned by some amateur about backspin. The amateur was apparently convinced that the pros knew some "secret" to imparting it to a golf ball. Despite several attempts to explain it as above, the amateur persisted. Finally, Armour asked if, on his approach, he was usually past the hole or short of it. When informed that the am was usually short of the hole Armour supposedly replied, "Then what in the hell do you need backspin for!"

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On 7/29/2018 at 6:47 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

This also reminds me of story told about Tommy Armour. He was questioned by some amateur about backspin. The amateur was apparently convinced that the pros knew some "secret" to imparting it to a golf ball. Despite several attempts to explain it as above, the amateur persisted. Finally, Armour asked if, on his approach, he was usually past the hole or short of it. When informed that the am was usually short of the hole Armour supposedly replied, "Then what in the hell do you need backspin for!"

That quote is attributed to at least 3 different past pros.  I've heard it most often as a quote by Hogan.  Never heard Armour credited with it before.  I'm thinking that it's probably one of those stories that's more myth than fact.

Edited by Fourputt

Rick

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Micro-grooves are so twenty minutes ago.  I'm holding out for nano-grooves.  They are so cool nobody knows what they are...yet.

In der bag:
Cleveland Hi-Bore driver, Maltby 5 wood, Maltby hybrid, Maltby irons and wedges (23 to 50) Vokey 59/07, Cleveland Niblick (LH-42), and a Maltby mallet putter.                                                                                                                                                 "When the going gets tough...it's tough to get going."

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10 hours ago, Piz said:

Micro-grooves are so twenty minutes ago.  I'm holding out for nano-grooves.  They are so cool nobody knows what they are...yet.

Nano is so 20th Century. Femto is the way to go.

Scott

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