Unconventional can work?

[Gonko]

Thought provoking thread en route.

Assumption here is you are a mid-high handicap player with a resonable good swing as far as mechanics are concerned, albeit not by the book perfect (which is the point of this post).

OK, so I 'naturally' have a little chicken wing at impact and also would have a sweeper mentality during my shot.
At a recent fitting for the TM M4 irons, I was fit around the 7i with a carry of around 160-170.

My natural shot is a cut fade maybe 15-20 yards over this distance.
So after the fitting with club at 1degree up and KBS 120 Tour Stiff shafts, the ball was going 6 yards left and cutting back centre.....maybe to 3 yeards right.

So I THEN went and tried to perfect my swing. You know, the way we are told the swing should be. On plane, super straight lead arm at impact, hitting down with the irons......all the usual stuff we are told.
This resulted in a lot of thick shots and loss of confidence over the ball.

I then went back to just my usual mental visualization of sweeping the ball away, mentally picturing the club swinging through the balls path. To hell with thinking mechanics, the human brain can figure it out. I pictured the shot, the path, the sweep and calmly delivered a crisp smack to the ball and she flew. My 'natural' shot for which I was fit around.

Is this perfect....who knows. I am back playing golf the past month or so after a 3 year break and I had been an on and off range warrior previously. But looking at taking it seriosly this time around now that I am settled with kids, family and my own place with a driving net in the garden (woo!).


My point is, the mind controls the body. Without the mind the body cannot function, yet in golf we try (or are told) to have the body program the brain.
Direct the mind and the body will follow.

I'd love to hear feedback. Clear your mind of mechanical thoughts and just stand over the ball for as long as needed to 'feel and see' what a good sweep and delivery looks like. Sweep through in your mind and picture how the ball will just jump off on its merry way without effort. Do not over swing, do not aim to destroy the ball. Just picture a nice hard (but controlled!!! and smooth) sweep. And then trust your brain to figure it out.

Would love to hear feedback on this.

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, Gonko said:

Thought provoking thread en route.

Assumption here is you are a mid-high handicap player with a resonable good swing as far as mechanics are concerned, albeit not by the book perfect (which is the point of this post).

OK, so I 'naturally' have a little chicken wing at impact and also would have a sweeper mentality during my shot.
At a recent fitting for the TM M4 irons, I was fit around the 7i with a carry of around 160-170.

My natural shot is a cut fade maybe 15-20 yards over this distance.
So after the fitting with club at 1degree up and KBS 120 Tour Stiff shafts, the ball was going 6 yards left and cutting back centre.....maybe to 3 yeards right.

So I THEN went and tried to perfect my swing. You know, the way we are told the swing should be. On plane, super straight lead arm at impact, hitting down with the irons......all the usual stuff we are told.
This resulted in a lot of thick shots and loss of confidence over the ball.

I then went back to just my usual mental visualization of sweeping the ball away, mentally picturing the club swinging through the balls path. To hell with thinking mechanics, the human brain can figure it out. I pictured the shot, the path, the sweep and calmly delivered a crisp smack to the ball and she flew. My 'natural' shot for which I was fit around.

Is this perfect....who knows. I am back playing golf the past month or so after a 3 year break and I had been an on and off range warrior previously. But looking at taking it seriosly this time around now that I am settled with kids, family and my own place with a driving net in the garden (woo!).


My point is, the mind controls the body. Without the mind the body cannot function, yet in golf we try (or are told) to have the body program the brain.
Direct the mind and the body will follow.

I'd love to hear feedback. Clear your mind of mechanical thoughts and just stand over the ball for as long as needed to 'feel and see' what a good sweep and delivery looks like. Sweep through in your mind and picture how the ball will just jump off on its merry way without effort. Do not over swing, do not aim to destroy the ball. Just picture a nice hard (but controlled!!! and smooth) sweep. And then trust your brain to figure it out.

Would love to hear feedback on this.

A slight bend to the lead arm (left if you are a righty) is not bad. Jordan Speith and Lee Westwood have it and they're pretty good! 

If it is working, you make good contact and the ball goes where you want it, then I would not focus on it as an issue.

[Missouri Swede]

2 hours ago, Gonko said:

My point is, the mind controls the body. Without the mind the body cannot function, yet in golf we try (or are told) to have the body program the brain.
Direct the mind and the body will follow.

Not sure if I understand what you mean by this part.

Or is this along the line of what you propose?

Anyway, welcome to thesandtrap!

Edited July 23, 2018 by Missouri Swede

[Patch]

I am not a follower of the various swing mechanics that modern golf says needs to be done to become a very good golfer. Even when I was a pretty good golfer,  shooting par  occasionally, my swing guru at the time emphasized a useable impact position more than anything else. How I got to that usable impact position was not a priority. Sure, there were things that needed to be done in my swing to get to that usable impact position, but a good ball flight was caused by the way the club impacted the ball. 

Jim Furyk has had a pretty good career with what many consider an unconventional swing. His swing gets him to a pro tour level impact position. 

Now, don't get me wrong, anyone who can learn all the modern "proper" swing mechanics, to become the best they can be, I have nothing but total respect for these folks. The same with their instructors. A newby just starting out would do well to take a few basic lessons from a qualified instructor. Then decide if the want to continue on their own, or continue with that qualified instruction.

I know golfers who play quite well using More Norman's natural golf swing. That swing is considered unconventional. They shoot scores in the 70s, and more so in the 80s consistently. That swing is not well known in today's instruction. Some teach a variation of it, but it's not Norman's swing. Back when Norman was using it, the pga thought it was a viable swing, and even issued a letter to it's members saying as much. 

There is no one way to learn to shoot decent scores. No one instruction method will work with all golfers, and vice versa. Natural talent levels have a lot to do with what does, and does not work for the student. 

The one thing all golfers share is their impact position. The better, more consistently precise that impact position is, the better scores the golfer will shoot. It matters little to the individual if they arrive at that useable impact position conventionally, or unconventionally. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Patch

[klineka]

 

2 hours ago, Gonko said:

Sweep through in your mind and picture how the ball will just jump off on its merry way without effort. Do not over swing, do not aim to destroy the ball. Just picture a nice hard (but controlled!!! and smooth) sweep. And then trust your brain to figure it out.

No. This isnt true. It doesnt work like that. I could picture a perfect, Dustin Johnson type 300+ yd drive over and over in my head, but without possessing the physical ability to make the clubhead move at a certain speed, I'll never be able to drive as far as he does no matter how long I picture it. 

3 hours ago, Gonko said:

So I THEN went and tried to perfect my swing. You know, the way we are told the swing should be. On plane, super straight lead arm at impact, hitting down with the irons......all the usual stuff we are told.
This resulted in a lot of thick shots and loss of confidence over the ball.

I then went back to just my usual mental visualization of sweeping the ball away, mentally picturing the club swinging through the balls path. To hell with thinking mechanics, the human brain can figure it out. I pictured the shot, the path, the sweep and calmly delivered a crisp smack to the ball and she flew. My 'natural' shot for which I was fit around.

Even though you felt like you were just sweeping the ball away, you were still probably hitting down on the ball with a negative angle of attack. Feel isnt real. The human brain cant just figure it out. If the human brain could just "figure it out" then why does almost every pro player have or had a swing coach?

 

If your reasonably good swing produces the quality of shots you are looking for and allows you to score, then great, dont change it. Enjoy the game. But dont be surprised when you reach a certain skill level and you plateau.

If you want to continually improve, lower your scores, hit it further, more consistency, sooner or later your reasonably good swing will have to physically change in order for you to improve. Obviously a couple players have figured it out with their lead arm bent at impact, but I can show examples of many many more players with straight lead arms at impact than I can with lead arms that are bent. The ball doesnt know that you are mentally trying to "sweep" at the ball. The ball reacts to the club and the physics. Your mind is not capable of overriding physics. 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Gonko said:

Assumption here is you are a mid-high handicap player with a resonable good swing as far as mechanics are concerned,

Unless the player is very old or very young (they hit it short distances), I don’t agree with this assumption. That person almost doesn’t exist. Good swings produce good results whether they look like Adam Scott or Eamonn Darcy/Jim Furyk.

[MarvChamp]

7 hours ago, Patch said:

The one thing all golfers share is their impact position. The better, more consistently precise that impact position is, the better scores the golfer will shoot. It matters little to the individual if they arrive at that useable impact position conventionally, or unconventionally. 

That's what Nicklaus said I believe...Deliver the center of the club face to the ball. -Marv

[Vinsk]

3 minutes ago, MarvChamp said:

That's what Nicklaus said I believe...Deliver the center of the club face to the ball. -Marv

Another great tip from Nicklaus. 🤭

[MarvChamp]

Just now, Vinsk said:

Another great tip from Nicklaus. 🤭

My question has always been: HOW? -Marv

[p1n9183]

As a feel player i don´t have a single clue what my swing look like.
My stance is really narrow and really open to the target, my hips and shoulders too.

The only thing that matter to me and i try to figure out each shot at a time is the amount of degress i need to open or close the club face at adress and the club path i want to do in order to create the ball fligth i want. 

For me swing mechanics are overrated, the only thing that matter it´s the face angle, AOA and club path at impact. If you figure out those 3 variables you will be ok.  

[Gonko]

23 hours ago, klineka said:

 

No. This isnt true. It doesnt work like that. I could picture a perfect, Dustin Johnson type 300+ yd drive over and over in my head, but without possessing the physical ability to make the clubhead move at a certain speed, I'll never be able to drive as far as he does no matter how long I picture it. 

My point was, don't picture Johnson (as his swing is different) and don't picture anyone. Just picture the ball being swept away and imagine the grass getting a little haircut as its done. 

Now it may well be that I end up hitting the perfect shot doing this. But all I know is, if I concentrate on the mechanics of the 'perfect' or 'ideal' swing......my impacts get a little worse. 

I am not saying I have a perfect clean hit ratio....but the clean hits are higher with my natural (brain powered) swing. So my question is, should I refine this....or chop and change to the idealistic swing as this (on paper at least) is perceived to be better?

[klineka]

19 minutes ago, Gonko said:

I am not saying I have a perfect clean hit ratio....but the clean hits are higher with my natural (brain powered) swing. So my question is, should I refine this....or chop and change to the idealistic swing as this (on paper at least) is perceived to be better?

That depends.

Are you happy with your current skill level and ball striking? If so, dont change it and enjoy the game. Work on other weaknesses besides the full swing (chipping, putting, course mgmt, etc). 

If you are unhappy with how you are striking the ball and want to improve/lower your handicap (if you keep one) then you might need to make some adjustments to your physical swing and your swing thoughts/feelings. 

[Piz]

I don't think "unconventional" works at all.  A swing may look different, or odd, but the laws of physics cannot be altered by eccentricity.  The ball goes where it must...in the manner it must.  While no two swings are exactly alike; all good swings share a few commonalities...the rest is window dressing.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, p1n9183 said:

For me swing mechanics are overrated, the only thing that matter it´s the face angle, AOA and club path at impact. If you figure out those 3 variables you will be ok.  

And how do you achieve those three "variables"? Mechanics.

Bear in mind this is still accurate:

Everyone I teach is given feels… to change their mechanics.

1 hour ago, Gonko said:

My point was, don't picture Johnson (as his swing is different) and don't picture anyone. Just picture the ball being swept away and imagine the grass getting a little haircut as its done.

And what if your version of that thought leads to horrible mechanics and an inability to break 110? What then?

1 hour ago, Gonko said:

Now it may well be that I end up hitting the perfect shot doing this. But all I know is, if I concentrate on the mechanics of the 'perfect' or 'ideal' swing......my impacts get a little worse.

Nobody here would advocate for "concentrating on mechanics" during a golf swing.

1 hour ago, Gonko said:

I am not saying I have a perfect clean hit ratio....but the clean hits are higher with my natural (brain powered) swing. So my question is, should I refine this....or chop and change to the idealistic swing as this (on paper at least) is perceived to be better?

I don't know what your swing is like now. But you likely lack some of the 5 Simple Keys®, so improving those is basically guaranteed to improve your golf.

[iacas]

13 hours ago, 308 Ragin Cajun said:

You can get tied up in knots trying to think about swing mechanics while trying to play a round of golf. I's called "paralysis by analysis". Don't ask me how I know this. That's what practice is for.  to ingrain the swing so that it becomes second nature, and can be performed without thinking about mechanics, just the target.

I think there's space between "paralysis by analysis" and "thinking about mechanics while playing golf."

I've played some of my best golf rehearsing and thinking about a mechanical thing. It's still a "feel" but the entire point of "feels" is to produce a change in the mechanics.

[edomingox]

I found that when it comes to the swing, there is nothing wrong with it.  Anything you want the ball to do can be done at address and setup.  For example, I would hit the ball fat at times.  That's because I was focused at looking at the back of the ball.  So instead, I focus on looking at the front of the ball and now I hit perfect with the occasional thin shot. 

I don't think any swing thoughts any more.  I used to.  It just doesn't seem to work.  So I just swing and let it happen.  I don't work on my full swing now that I have it around where I need it.  Never work on the driver.  I find after analyzing a round, most of my mistakes come from chips and putts.  Sometimes from wrong club choices, not accounting for wind or the lie, but all those, not that often.  It's just a matter of getting into the habit of doing those checks and decisions correctly.

I've tried unconventional techniques.  Like putting with a chipping stance.  That worked for about two weeks.  Then it just stopped working.  I went back to the conventional way and that works better now.  So if something works and it's unconventional, you'll need to see if it stands the test of time.