Are Golf Courses Too Long and Difficult? Lee Trevino Interview

**mvmac** · April 27, 2012

Here's Lee Trevino's take on the Tee it Forward initiative and courses being built that are over 7,000 yards

Mike Bailey. What is the state of the game right now?

Lee Trevino: I think it's in trouble. I know that it's very exciting on tour, but it's not exciting to for a lot of people to have to play these courses that they're building for the tour players. They build these hard golf courses, and now they're talking about playing the forward tees (Tee it Forward). They should have never built those back tees in the first place. Why do you want a golf course that's 7,400 yards long? I mean the majority of your members are elderly, and they can't hit it anywhere.

Bailey: So you're not a big fan of the Tee it Forward program?

Trevino: Guys feel like they're going to the ladies tees when you push them up forward. They don't like that. Golfers want to be macho, play it from the tips. Why they're building these golf courses longer than 6,900 yards is beyond me.

Bailey: But don't they have to build the courses longer to accommodate the modern game?

Trevino: We build these courses that are supposedly going to challenge the pros. Well, wait a minute; we build hundreds and hundreds of golf courses in this country that most people can't play. They take too long to play because they’re too difficult. And also it costs too much for maintenance. And that, in return, sends the dues (and green fees) up and people are dropping out. We're in a lot of trouble right now.

Bailey: Do you think we should go more toward what they do in Great Britain, just a couple of sets of tees that everyone plays?

Trevino: Yes. And the greens are open in the front and you can run the ball up. In other words, a high handicapper can bump and run the ball on the green. These new modern courses they've built in the last 30 years are all carry. There are a lot of people who can't get it in the air or they get it in the air and it's low, and they don't have a chance to run the ball to the green. They've got to carry bunkers and false fronts. We've really gone the wrong way.

Bailey: But don't you think modern equipment combined with great athletes is making many of these golf courses obsolete?

Trevino: The guy with the lowest score wins, whether it's 9-under, 12-under or 22-under. Who gives a damn? The problem is who pays for that course and the maintenance of that course? It's the member, and thousands and thousands are dropping out.

Bailey: You've dabbled in design work a little, right? How come you haven't done more?

Trevino: No. 1, I don't need any jobs and don't need the money. But if people wanted some redos, I'd go back to traditional. If you hire me to redo your golf course, and you've got bunkers in front of your greens, I'm going to take them out. You're going to have a way to get in there. All these forced carries are stupid. Of course there are a lot of golf courses that have to have it because they only have so much land and they have to leave so much natural land.

**allin** · April 27, 2012

I think many courses in the last 15 -20 years have been built as housing developments or for resorts where the real goal was to provide as many lots for condos and houses as possible. Golf playability for average golfers and maintenance was a low priority. This results in very expensive golf courses that average golfers don't enjoy. The other reasons are ego and word of mouth advertising. When people ask for a recommendation they tend to ask better golfers who love challenging courses. This even impacts league and outing decisions, charity events etc. Ego comes in to play because everyone wants to be connected with building a course that can be described as an elite championship course. The problem is very few areas need more than one or at the most two high end courses. So the new course takes rounds or members from an existing course or both often struggle.

**xmanhockey7** · April 27, 2012

I know people who are better players and if they play anything under 6900-7000 the course is just really short for them. The problem is too many courses are trying to create a challenge for the long hitters/better players.

**zipazoid** · April 27, 2012

Originally Posted by xmanhockey7

I know people who are better players and if they play anything under 6900-7000 the course is just really short for them. The problem is too many courses are trying to create a challenge for the long hitters/better players.

And what percentage of all the golfers would they represent? Less than one percent perhaps?

Lee is correct. Courses aren't built for everyday, average golfers. They're palaces to the scratch player. And cost a ton to maintain.

**max power** · April 27, 2012

Beat me to it. Guys who need 7000 yds represent about the smallest fraction of golfers you can imagine.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

And what percentage of all the golfers would they represent? Less than one percent perhaps?

Lee is correct. Courses aren't built for everyday, average golfers. They're palaces to the scratch player. And cost a ton to maintain.

**Jmdmbike** · April 27, 2012

I posted on another thread that once the course is over 6,500 yards, I don't enjoy it. Between 6,000 and 6,500 works well for me and Most of the people I play with. I do know a few guys that always want to play the tips, and they struggle - they have no business being back there. Guys who need 7,000 yards are definitely a small % of all golfers - still too many who think they need to be playing from that distance

**bwdial** · April 27, 2012

Lee is right. Courses don't have to be overly long to challenge even the best golfers. If they did, the PGA wouldn't go to Harbour Town.

**jamo** · April 27, 2012

I agree with Lee. I usually play the back or second-to-back tees, but when I play with friends (a few times a year), we always move forward. Mostly because they're absolutely terrible :-P , but partly because it's just really, really fun. About a year and a half ago we did a forward tees challenge here at TST, and it was a load of fun. I shot a -5.

**xmanhockey7** · April 28, 2012

Originally Posted by jamo

I agree with Lee. I usually play the back or second-to-back tees, but when I play with friends (a few times a year), we always move forward. Mostly because they're absolutely terrible , but partly because it's just really, really fun.
About a year and a half ago we did a forward tees challenge here at TST, and it was a load of fun. I shot a -5.

Playing up a set of tees can definitely be more fun. One time I played from the "mens tees" instead of the back tees at my home course because well, that is where they had my flight playing from. I made 5 birdies that day. 4 of them were in a row. I had a lot of fun that day. Too bad I also made 5 bogeys on the day.

**CraiginKSA** · April 28, 2012

My home course is about 6,200 from the whites and is still slope 133 (it's 6,800 from the blues and slope 138). The course is hard, but you can play strategic with an iron off some tees and it's still shoot a good score. There are bunkers in front of most greens, but if you hit a good drive you can wedge it in there and have a chance.

**I-league** · April 28, 2012

I agree wholeheartedly I am going to keep bumping this thread until everybody in the world of golf has read the interview.

(or until I get banned. whichever comes first)

**boogielicious** · April 28, 2012

It has been discussed on this forum before. Creative design would eliminate the need for really long courses. It makes it fun.

**allin** · April 28, 2012

I thought I would add that many courses place the fairway bunkers so that they are about a 240-250 yard carry from the back and 210-220 from the white tees. This means that they don't challenge better players but average players are in them all the time. Especially on long par 4s or short par 5s they should be 275 or more to carry from the back. This means that the difference in front to back tees needs to have a greater spread. My home course has two par 5s that are 540 from the back tees and 500-510 from the white. Realistically the middle tees should be that distance and the front tees about 480. The ladies tees are at about 440-450. Most of the women I have played with usually have a 5 or 6 iron for their third shot, after two full shots, I lay up and hit a wedge. No wonder more women don't play.

**poser** · April 28, 2012

I don't really mind courses in the 7200 - 7300 yard range. It depends on how you get the yardage. Par 4s that are over 500 is just stupid. We have a course in town that had a 540 yard par 4.... I like the idea of restricting the golf balls

**Chas** · April 28, 2012

Many thanks to Trevino for being so candid. I doubt he's invited to design many courses because of his views that don't follow received wisdom.

And like someone said, courses that are shortish for the pros can be designed to be more difficult for them than the yardage might suggest (yet more forgiving for the high capper) - that would not be brain surgery for a good designer.

The game of golf is indeed in trouble in this country - time to do something about it. Golf is too expensive for many, and often takes too much time (often >5 hrs), partly because some courses are too long.

**Stretch** · April 28, 2012

You can trick up a short track too. One of the old money, tight acreage courses here in South Africa hired Jack a few years ago to bring their layout back up to "tournament standard." With no way to add length, he settled for constructing green complexes so diabolical that the average member handicap at the club went out six shots in the year after it reopened. Guess what, he's back right now grading off a few tiers.

**Paradox** · April 28, 2012

I still contend that lengthening is not the way to go for upping difficulty but narrowing instead. Fairways are too wide, too easy to get to the landing spots without much trouble, so on and so forth.

Use trees more(not only does it create difficulty on the course, its also asthetically pleasing and good for the environment) use slopes and mounding more(side slope, downhill, uphill).

I actually think that if more courses used closely mowed areas instead of so much rough...they would end up more difficult. shave banks into bunkers both fairway and greenside.

**jamo** · April 28, 2012

I still contend that lengthening is not the way to go for upping difficulty but narrowing instead. Fairways are too wide, too easy to get to the landing spots without much trouble, so on and so forth. Use trees more(not only does it create difficulty on the course, its also asthetically pleasing and good for the environment) use slopes and mounding more(side slope, downhill, uphill). I actually think that if more courses used closely mowed areas instead of so much rough...they would end up more difficult. shave banks into bunkers both fairway and greenside.

The problem with that is that people take forever looking for their balls in the trees, and if they don't find them they have to re-tee.

Sign In

Are Golf Courses Too Long and Difficult? Lee Trevino Interview

0 1 member has voted

1. Are Most Golf Courses Too Long and Difficult?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

chicagogolf

I-league

neophyte

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Topics Being Discussed Right Now on The Sand Trap

TST Partners

Posts

Important Information

0
1 member has voted