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Are you fooling yourself?


DaveP043
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I'm offering this as a question in relation to how we change our swings.  Very few of us have access to frequent video review of our swings, and even fewer have access to frequent video review by a competent instructor.  Consequently, we don't really know what we're doing, we know what it feels like we're doing.  When we try to change something, our feedback is is our feelings, not an actual image of the change.  The only "factual" feedback we get is the results, the contact and the flight of the ball.  The way I've phrased this to my friends is that we use our brain to try to fool our body into doing things the right way.

As an example, One of my swing faults is an overlong backswing.  If I can see the clubhead out of my left eye, erratic shots will follow.  It doesn't "feel" anything other than normal.  So when I practice, I try to feel like I'm 45 degrees short of parallel, still with a full shoulder turn.   If I turn to watch a shadow, I know that I'm around parallel when I do this,  so the feeling is significantly different from the reality.  This is that I mean by "fooling myself."  Practicing with the "45 degrees short of parallel" feeling helps this new feeling seem normal.  Then when I'm on the course, I'm trying produce a normal-feeling swing..

Does anyone else take this view towards practice and swing changes?  Or, on the other hand, do you think that you really do understand what you're actually doing in your swing, and in your swing changes?

Dave

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This is a great question! I can't wait for some better answers.

What I feel at this point is that solid contact is even not a good enough feedback to determine if you are doing well or not. It seems like you need to see and understand the video you take of yourself. I've hit solidly, but wild in direction. Now that I've made "minor" adjustments to my swing the same shots now go "straight". The "minor" adjustments "felt" like night and day changes, but on video look barely different. In fact, from the video, it looks like I have a long ways to go even though my shots are nice high draws with reasonably "solid" contact. What I believe is that when I make the full transition the shots will be much more controlled and solid taking less effort and probably feel totally different, while the video will show just the subtlest of changes.

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absolutely -

that's why Trackman was so great for me - actual real repeatable data - no subjectiveness

I really do need to do a lot more video review

(I actually do better with a fuller backswing - so seeing that clubhead out of my left peripherals, strangely enough for me, was actually feedback for me that I was achieving a goal......funny game)

Bill - 

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There's really no reason to be without video. Even if your phone or camera will only do 30fps you can still verify that your actually making changes. And considering the importance of practicing slowly, the Fps becomes even less important.

Yours in earnest, Jason.
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Thanks, guys, for the responses.  After reading them, I'll ask another question.  It seems like each of you use video to some extent.  Do you use it in conjunction with an instructor, or do you evaluate your swing on your own?  For my point of view, I'm happy dealing with feel, and and how changes to my feel influence the resulting shots.  Although I've seen still photos of myself, I've never seen myself on video, and I'm not sure I'd want to.  My fear is that I don't have the appropriate knowledge to interpret what I'd see, and start fixing things that don't need fixing.  In my case, it would be like giving a computer to a chimp, with me in the simian role.

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
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Thanks, guys, for the responses.  After reading them, I'll ask another question.  It seems like each of you use video to some extent.  Do you use it in conjunction with an instructor, or do you evaluate your swing on your own?  For my point of view, I'm happy dealing with feel, and and how changes to my feel influence the resulting shots.  Although I've seen still photos of myself, I've never seen myself on video, and I'm not sure I'd want to.  My fear is that I don't have the appropriate knowledge to interpret what I'd see, and start fixing things that don't need fixing.  In my case, it would be like giving a computer to a chimp, with me in the simian role.

My 1st lesson involved a video swing analysis.   The following 4 sessions involved retaking videos and checking for progress.   This is why I know for sure that I changed my swing completely.   The videos make the lessons far more effective in my opinion.   I now take videos of my swing at slow-mo  time to time.   It's telling me me new swing is still there but my old flipping hasn't gone yet completely.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

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Thanks, guys, for the responses.  After reading them, I'll ask another question.  It seems like each of you use video to some extent.  Do you use it in conjunction with an instructor, or do you evaluate your swing on your own?  For my point of view, I'm happy dealing with feel, and and how changes to my feel influence the resulting shots.  Although I've seen still photos of myself, I've never seen myself on video, and I'm not sure I'd want to.  My fear is that I don't have the appropriate knowledge to interpret what I'd see, and start fixing things that don't need fixing.  In my case, it would be like giving a computer to a chimp, with me in the simian role.

I would think at your current level you should find a really good instructor which is also difficult at your level of play. However, it's probably worth it for you to see improvement.

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Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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Thanks, guys, for the responses.  After reading them, I'll ask another question.  It seems like each of you use video to some extent.  Do you use it in conjunction with an instructor, or do you evaluate your swing on your own?  For my point of view, I'm happy dealing with feel, and and how changes to my feel influence the resulting shots.  Although I've seen still photos of myself, I've never seen myself on video, and I'm not sure I'd want to.  My fear is that I don't have the appropriate knowledge to interpret what I'd see, and start fixing things that don't need fixing.  In my case, it would be like giving a computer to a chimp, with me in the simian role.

I use video, and this is what I struggle with.  I see so many things I think need fixing.  I work on one piece for 10 minutes, than I work on something else for 10 min.  Nothing ever changes when you practice like that.  What I need is a priority piece and think of nothing else while practicing besides that piece.  I just don't know what mine is at the moment, and that leads me to be all over the place and not changing anything.  I need to get back on evolvr.

Hopefully I'm better tomorrow

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I have become a believer in video ... I like try and evaluate my swing prior to sending it into Evolvr ... Use my iPhone to record ... just amazing what I see in the video, versus what I "feel" The other bonus of service like Evolvr is I watch it many times to understand the feedback, so far it has only been 1 or 2 items to focus on per lesson.

Ken Proud member of the iSuk Golf Association ... Sponsored by roofing companies across the US, Canada, and the UK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP043

Thanks, guys, for the responses.  After reading them, I'll ask another question.  It seems like each of you use video to some extent.  Do you use it in conjunction with an instructor, or do you evaluate your swing on your own?  For my point of view, I'm happy dealing with feel, and and how changes to my feel influence the resulting shots.  Although I've seen still photos of myself, I've never seen myself on video, and I'm not sure I'd want to.  My fear is that I don't have the appropriate knowledge to interpret what I'd see, and start fixing things that don't need fixing.  In my case, it would be like giving a computer to a chimp, with me in the simian role.

I use video, and this is what I struggle with.  I see so many things I think need fixing.  I work on one piece for 10 minutes, than I work on something else for 10 min.  Nothing ever changes when you practice like that.  What I need is a priority piece and think of nothing else while practicing besides that piece.  I just don't know what mine is at the moment, and that leads me to be all over the place and not changing anything.  I need to get back on evolvr.

My lessons were two weeks apart, and had drills to fix one thing and one thing only.    This gives me enough time to fix my swing one part at a time with a lot of practice/drills in the two week period.    If you are not giving enough time for the drills/practice, what you learned does not stick.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

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Feel ain't real. It's very real to the golfer of course, but it very rarely aligns with what is actually happening.

If that's what you're saying, then I agree.

As for not using video, there's no excuse not to these days. And if you want competent (far better than competent, btw, just using your words :D) instruction for a fair price, look at http://evolvr.com/ .

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Does anyone else take this view towards practice and swing changes?  Or, on the other hand, do you think that you really do understand what you're actually doing in your swing, and in your swing changes?

We are not what we think we are... I think of it as the American Idol audition effect (haven't some of those contestants ever heard themselves recorded?)... or, Why do I seem to look better in the mirror than in a picture?

Another one of my hobbies is playing around with music.  If I haven't recorded my performances for a while I seem to think I sound better than I really do.  When writing and recording some of my tunes, I can spend a bunch of time for a week or two recording.  During this process the gap between perception and reality decreases all the way to the point where there is pretty much no difference at all.  During this period, I sound just like I think I sound.

The first time I saw my golf swing on video I was shocked at how much I sucked. Previous perception of my swing vs reality was very far apart.  Now after instruction and a bunch of video, I think my perception of my swing and the reality of the video has narrowed (though still there is a gap).  I would think the better one gets, the more instruction one gets, and the more video of themselves one sees, then the closer their perception/feel comes to the reality of the video.

To @DaveP043 ion; I use video and instruction through Brian at Evolvr.

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Feel ain't real until it is. We do have to learn what correct feels like so that when we mess it up we know we did something incorrect. Setting up a camera and taking video is a real pain unless I have someone do it for me. I've said this before. It is a distraction to me. I prefer to work with a mirror and practice the movement slowly over and over again until I feel comfortable making that move. The camera behind me would be in the way of the mirror. Plus I'd have to stop and look and see if I was practicing the movement correctly. Rather have the mirror for practice and let my instructor take the video.

I'd probably see so many things on the video that are wrong, and I wouldn't know which one to pick out as the priority. About all I'd know how to do is put my swing next to a professional's like Na Yeon Choi and try to mimic her. But where to start? Taking the club away from A1 to A2?

Julia

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Erik, that's exactly what I was saying, in my own convoluted way.  I was interested in reading the attitudes from the wide variety of golfers that use this forum.  Coincidentally, I just read your Stupid Monkey post, which seems to suggest a similar approach to the one I use.  Understanding everything about my golf swing is much less important that achieving the feeling my instructor wants me to get to.

I appreciate your suggestion of evolvr.com, I've read in a lot of the posts here that many of the guys find it helpful.  I think my preference would be to work with someone face-to-face.  I'm lucky to have a number of good options locally, including Bob Benning, our previous head pro who still teaches at my home club.  At the moment, however, I'm not prepared to devote the time and effort I know it takes to produce any significant changes.  My practice these days is intended mainly to maintain basics like alignment, and to reinforce my current swing thoughts.

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

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I do mostly mirror work.  I can see in real time what I'm doing and how it feels.  Then I take it to video, I can see how it looks without me being able to get real time feedback and see if something has stuck or not and either keep working at it or not.

I also do evolvr and send in videos so my instructor also can tell me if I need to work on something different or keep at what I'm doing allowing me to be a stupid, albeit, happy monkey.

Christian

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@RFKFREAK not to drift too far off the topic ... I feel like I need to hit a ball, even my sponge golf balls (the only product Hank Haney produces I have bought) . As result I feel like, if I look in a mirror I am only faking it ... but I also feel like I missing something that could help me ... how do you translate mirror work to actually hitting a ball (even fake ones) I do practice steady head and not moving my hips backwards a few times before I swing at my practice golf balls ...

Ken Proud member of the iSuk Golf Association ... Sponsored by roofing companies across the US, Canada, and the UK

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@RFKFREAK not to drift too far off the topic ... I feel like I need to hit a ball, even my sponge golf balls (the only product Hank Haney produces I have bought) . As result I feel like, if I look in a mirror I am only faking it ... but I also feel like I missing something that could help me ... how do you translate mirror work to actually hitting a ball (even fake ones)

I do practice steady head and not moving my hips backwards a few times before I swing at my practice golf balls ...

Well, when I'm indoors and doing mirror work, I'm normally doing it in the living room where I have laminate hardwood floors so I can't really put a ball, sponge or otherwise, and make contact otherwise my gf would have my head.  Besides that, when doing my mirror work indoors, I feel that the ball would be somewhat of a distraction.  What I'm focusing on is #ChangingThePicture and having it look the way my instructor says it should look like (shortening up the back swing, keeping a steady head, etc.).

So when I go outdoors and hit into my net, I'll have the ball there, and see how the indoor work is translating to a ball being there.  Even outdoors, though, I'm doing the same drill and doing it slowly until the camera says I'm doing what I'm supposed to be and then I add a little bit of speed, check the camera, and keep the process going until I can do it at full speed.

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Christian

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I've fooled myself  for too long -- thinking I'm making changes, but nooooo........

I look good on video without a ball, but put a ball down and everything changes.

It needs to feel different -  my issue has been too long of a backswing and arms go behind shirt seam.

I have my son video me; and am resolving it.

I now go to an instructor where I can see every swing on a large monitor and still get to hit balls outside.

It's tough to make changes - one must see them.

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Note: This thread is 3280 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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