Grip Issue - Club Face Twisting Closed

[JGus]

I'll try to explain this the best I can, but am curious if anyone else has had this problem and if so, what the fix was.

Basically over the past 3 weeks I have gotten the shank's, I know what is causing it, but can't seem to correct the problem.  I have a neutral grip and it's been the same for a long time now.  About 3 weeks ago I noticed on the range that after taking a couple practice swings that when I go to address the ball my club face is closed between 1-2 inches, I re-grip and think it's square, but at impact the majoring of my shots are shank's to the right.  When this started it was only severe on the range, when I played the worst it got was an over draw.  I went to the range last night, for the first 20 minutes or so everything was good, then all of sudden it went south quickly.  After a little frustration I decided to just go play a few holes to see what happened.  With my driver and fairway woods everything was good, but my hybrid and irons were pure shanks to the right, every time.

I noticed two things as I was trying to focus on what was causing this.  First thing was after a practice swing or after impact my right hand (right handed golfer) was a lot weaker then at address causing the club face to close.  And on severe shanks, my right thumb rolled to the right off of my left thumb, which seems to cause the club to close as well.  Second thing I noticed was that I felt the grip rolling in my left hand, like the creases in my fingers were pushing the grip out of it's position, which seemed to turn the club counter clockwise, or closing it. 

As far as my grips go, I had new grips put on 2 months ago, but they are the same kind, mid-size MCC+4s that I have used for at least the past 3-4 years.  I don't think my hands have shrunk, but I'm wondering if I put a standard size grip on a couple of clubs if it will make any difference.  I have this issue with and without a glove.

I'm doing my best to fight through this, but it is getting very frustrating.  Appreciate any thoughts on the root cause(s) or corrective actions that may help fix the issue.

[boogielicious]

40 minutes ago, JGus said:

I'll try to explain this the best I can, but am curious if anyone else has had this problem and if so, what the fix was.

Basically over the past 3 weeks I have gotten the shank's, I know what is causing it, but can't seem to correct the problem.  I have a neutral grip and it's been the same for a long time now.  About 3 weeks ago I noticed on the range that after taking a couple practice swings that when I go to address the ball my club face is closed between 1-2 inches, I re-grip and think it's square, but at impact the majoring of my shots are shank's to the right.  When this started it was only severe on the range, when I played the worst it got was an over draw.  I went to the range last night, for the first 20 minutes or so everything was good, then all of sudden it went south quickly.  After a little frustration I decided to just go play a few holes to see what happened.  With my driver and fairway woods everything was good, but my hybrid and irons were pure shanks to the right, every time.

I noticed two things as I was trying to focus on what was causing this.  First thing was after a practice swing or after impact my right hand (right handed golfer) was a lot weaker then at address causing the club face to close.  And on severe shanks, my right thumb rolled to the right off of my left thumb, which seems to cause the club to close as well.  Second thing I noticed was that I felt the grip rolling in my left hand, like the creases in my fingers were pushing the grip out of it's position, which seemed to turn the club counter clockwise, or closing it. 

As far as my grips go, I had new grips put on 2 months ago, but they are the same kind, mid-size MCC+4s that I have used for at least the past 3-4 years.  I don't think my hands have shrunk, but I'm wondering if I put a standard size grip on a couple of clubs if it will make any difference.  I have this issue with and without a glove.

I'm doing my best to fight through this, but it is getting very frustrating.  Appreciate any thoughts on the root cause(s) or corrective actions that may help fix the issue.

I don’t think it is the grip. I have had this issue too with the face closing with irons at set up and still fight it on occasion. I spoke to my instructor and he suggested putting my hands on the grip differently. Make sure it is more in the fingers and set it after aiming the face. Another approach I have heard is to grip the left hand at your side first, then address the ball. You basically need to change what is causing it by doing it differently.

[billchao]

@JGus, I would check your grip on the club. Is it too much in the palms? Are there gaps where your fingers aren't in contact with the club so you're not able to hold onto it properly? Are you using enough pressure?

I can't say I've ever had the club twist in my hands unless my grips were worn or wet, both are friction-related issues.

[JGus]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I don’t think it is the grip. I have had this issue too with the face closing with irons at set up and still fight it on occasion. I spoke to my instructor and he suggested putting my hands on the grip differently. Make sure it is more in the fingers and set it after aiming the face. Another approach I have heard is to grip the left hand at your side first, then address the ball. You basically need to change what is causing it by doing it differently.

I tend to agree about the issue not being the grips, but trying to rule things out one by one.  I'll try the idea about placing my hands differently than I normally do, I started doing that a little last night, well maybe just shifting the club around in my hand more.  The grip rests in my fingers, not my palm, I've read @mvmac proper grip thread about 10 times in the past 2 weeks.  And have tried gripping from the side as well, it does create that normal angle, but have the same issue.  I lay the grip from the base of my pinkie to the first crease in my pointer finger, but actually noticed this evening when I was just gripping a club differently that the natural cupping at the base of my pinkie is above the bottom crease, more towards the palm.  That may be the pinching/pushing i'm feeling with the grip turning.

I'll keep working at it, and thanks for your thoughts on the topic.

 

1 hour ago, billchao said:

@JGus, I would check your grip on the club. Is it too much in the palms? Are there gaps where your fingers aren't in contact with the club so you're not able to hold onto it properly? Are you using enough pressure?

I can't say I've ever had the club twist in my hands unless my grips were worn or wet, both are friction-related issues.

I think my grip is correct in regards to where it sits across my fingers, not in the palm, but I do struggle a little with actually gripping the club with my left hand.  What I mean by that in regards to a weak or strong grip, I have noticed that when I place my hand on the grip, regardless if my hand starts under the club or on the side of it, the top side of my thumb always ends up in the same place (V pointing toward right shoulder).  I usually grip the club with my fingers first, then lay the bottom of my hand and thumb down, but I'll try gripping it differently now to see how things go.  It's locked into my brain now that it's going to happen when I swing so I have to get the thoughts out of my head, as well as finding a new way to grip the club.  Probably to much pressure, i've been working on trying to loosen my grip a little to help swing smoother, rather than trying to hit the ball.

Thanks for your feedback.

[iacas]

Grip it up in front of you, with the clubhead up in the air. Don't change it as you set it down.

[JGus]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Grip it up in front of you, with the clubhead up in the air. Don't change it as you set it down.

Thanks, I actually do grip it with the clubhead in the air the majority of time, but I also know that I figid a little (lot) with my grip once i'm at address.  I'll be hitting the range again tomorrow and will work on it.

[JGus]

Just a quick update, went to the range last night and tried the suggestions, but nothing seemed to help, just more frustrations.

A couple things I noticed though.  I did notice that there is a gap between where the base of my pinkie sits and where the heel of my hand rests on the club. I can feel that part of my hand rubbing and turning the club.  As soon as I place my right hand on the club and address the ball there is an immediate pressure of rolling it to the left that closes the clubface, which i'm thinking is the main cause of the club twisting.  Also noticed at the top of my backswing that my left hand feels like it is trying to prevent the club from turning, while my right hand seems to have a lot of pressure trying to twist it closed. 

So my thought, is that my right hand is doing the twisting and it's actually turning the club in my left hand.  Not sure what the fix is, but will continue to work on it until it is fixed or I throw in the towel.

[Zippo]

I am about as far from being a golf instructor as one can get and still be on the green side of the grass but, in the spirit of wanting to help, maybe start with the club really open so that by the time you've finished applying your grip and the "roll" is done the club head is square?

[JGus]

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

but, in the spirit of wanting to help, maybe start with the club really open so that by the time you've finished applying your grip and the "roll" is done the club head is square?

It's not a bad thought, I did somewhat try that but the right hand still seem to over power the left for some weird reason, my wrists seem to be doing weird things when I grip the club.  I was thinking more about where it ends up at impact, when I go out to the range this evening I'm going to see how gripping the club at an impact position works just to see the difference in my right wrist when moving back to address.

[ZenShot]

Maybe it’s not the club face but instead you’re leaning into the ball during the swing.  I have found it almost impossible to feel yourself do it.

[JGus]

On 6/9/2019 at 6:46 PM, ZenShot said:

Maybe it’s not the club face but instead you’re leaning into the ball during the swing.  I have found it almost impossible to feel yourself do it.

Good thought, but wasn't the problem.

Actually was at the range/course for 3-days straight trying to figure it out.  I'm pretty sure I have corrected the issue, even though Saturday at the range it creeped back in on about 5-7 swings, but I played 9 after and shot a 40.  I still had to regrip a couple times before my swing to make sure it was square and comfortable, didn't shank any, but still had a couple pulls.

Cause (the best I can tell):  Back swing got very quick and lazy.  I was very quick on my back swing, which I didn't realize how quick I actually got, and I say I got lazy as well because I wasn't focused on getting into the proper position.  With a quick back swing, my swing gets way to long and my hands get way to high and force the head of the club to cross my left shoulder, which I think was forcing my right hand to want to turn, which in turn twisted the club in my left hand.

Solution:  A very slow back swing, which allows me to reduce the over swing, and allows me to rotate my hands/wrists on the way back that puts me into more of a flat back swing.  When I do this correctly there isn't any fighting between my two hands and I make solid contact.  Still have the issue when addressing the ball with the club face closing some, but am learning to be patient and just readjust it at address.

[Baby draw]

Try 2 gloves

[K_Monty24]

On 6/9/2019 at 6:46 PM, ZenShot said:

Maybe it’s not the club face but instead you’re leaning into the ball during the swing.  I have found it almost impossible to feel yourself do it.

 

On 6/10/2019 at 9:15 PM, JGus said:

Good thought, but wasn't the problem.

Actually was at the range/course for 3-days straight trying to figure it out.  I'm pretty sure I have corrected the issue, even though Saturday at the range it creeped back in on about 5-7 swings, but I played 9 after and shot a 40.  I still had to regrip a couple times before my swing to make sure it was square and comfortable, didn't shank any, but still had a couple pulls.

Cause (the best I can tell):  Back swing got very quick and lazy.  I was very quick on my back swing, which I didn't realize how quick I actually got, and I say I got lazy as well because I wasn't focused on getting into the proper position.  With a quick back swing, my swing gets way to long and my hands get way to high and force the head of the club to cross my left shoulder, which I think was forcing my right hand to want to turn, which in turn twisted the club in my left hand.

Solution:  A very slow back swing, which allows me to reduce the over swing, and allows me to rotate my hands/wrists on the way back that puts me into more of a flat back swing.  When I do this correctly there isn't any fighting between my two hands and I make solid contact.  Still have the issue when addressing the ball with the club face closing some, but am learning to be patient and just readjust it at address.

As a +1.0 handicap player who has had to fight shanks with pitches and wedges periodically, for me it broke down to two possibilities. The first is leaning into the ball, where if I placed a towel or foam roller under me and hit balls, I would engrain a swing where I would stop leaning into the ball. It doesn't seem like this is the case for you. The second thing with me is that my hands would get real fast. For me, it seemed to be more of a problem with the downswing, where I would throw my hands down at the ball. Conditions where this was exacerbated: wet/long grass here I'd have to create speed, and post-shank shots where I'd flinch just a tiny degree due to obvious concern for a poor result.

I have messed with the backswing before, taking a more relaxed, rhythmatic takeaway. I found mixed results with this as it helped a little but I then lacked a real rythmatic, aggressive downswing. 

One last thing to try is to finish more left through the ball. Taking a more square-in to in pitch swing limits the ability for the club to get out away from your buddy and bring the hell into play.

Good luck, bud. We all go through it. Stick it out.

[JGus]

On 5/8/2020 at 6:25 AM, Baby draw said:

Try 2 gloves

  

On 5/9/2020 at 3:46 PM, K_Monty24 said:

Good luck, bud. We all go through it. Stick it out.

Thanks, issue was resolved.  Cause was mainly my right elbow flaring out and getting behind my body forcing my right wrist to push forward instead of flattening or laying the club down at the top.

[VoodooZ]

Hey JGus...

I just found your thread and had to comment as I've been fighting snap hook hell for a few years now and all my observations are similar to yours... whatever grip I try, I can feel the hands fighting each other to the point that the clubface is closed 45 degrees! and that's just hovering the club at impact. I've tried it all. flat swing plane, high hands, extreme grips, etc...

It has made my game hell as I fidget over every swing now expecting the worst.. playing in fear.

I wanted to know how you're doing it since you fixed it and if you have any feels or moves to recommend to help me/others who have the same issue.

Thanks in advance,

Stephane 

[JGus]

On 7/3/2020 at 1:33 PM, VoodooZ said:

Hey JGus...

I just found your thread and had to comment as I've been fighting snap hook hell for a few years now and all my observations are similar to yours... whatever grip I try, I can feel the hands fighting each other to the point that the clubface is closed 45 degrees! and that's just hovering the club at impact. I've tried it all. flat swing plane, high hands, extreme grips, etc...

It has made my game hell as I fidget over every swing now expecting the worst.. playing in fear.

I wanted to know how you're doing it since you fixed it and if you have any feels or moves to recommend to help me/others who have the same issue.

Thanks in advance,

Stephane 

I can't say that I have fixed it as the Sh**ks still pop up every now and again, but I think that's just because I don't focus on what I need to be doing.

What I focus on is keeping my right elbow pushing in towards my left arm during the backswing, this helps prevent it from lifting and flaring way behind me which pushes my right hand forward while my left hand is trying to go back.  When I do this correctly my right elbow is in the proper position for my downswing.  This also helps the right shoulder to actually turn back instead of pushing forward.  And lastly I try to keep my right hand flat, like holding a tray or pizza at the top of my swing.  The toe of the club is a little open compared to how it should be when the club is parallel to the ground on the backswing, but it's the only way, as of now, that helps prevent it.

For your grip, I would look around the site as there are a couple good threads on how to properly grip the club.  Best way is to lift the club off of the ground while you're gripping it, this has helped me to prevent the clubface being closed.

Hopefully that makes sense?

Edited July 4, 2020 by JGus
edits

[Vinsk]

5 hours ago, JGus said:

I can't say that I have fixed it as the Sh**ks still pop up every now and again, but I think that's just because I don't focus on what I need to be doing.

Shanks are Herpes, not Gonorrhea.😙

[ShaftFarmer]

On 7/4/2020 at 6:59 PM, Vinsk said:

Shanks are Herpes, not Gonorrhea.😙

My Junior year of high school towards the end of the golf season I got the shanks. I remember playing in two tournaments and coming in with scores over 100 as a 2 seed haha. Everything I would try would just end up making it worse. Still have nightmares about those days!