LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[Zeph]

9 hours ago, imsys0042 said:

Do the SGL oversized checks have blood splatters on them?  

It's signed with the blood of their enemies.

[imsys0042]

Amstel Light dropped him as well, so now he doesn't have free beer to cry with.

[iacas]

Lynch: Apologies are a test of character; Mickelson’s revealed his

---

Apologies are less about atoning for past mistakes than setting the table for future comity.

 

[Bucki1968]

I actually have some sympathy for Phil. He is good for golf and the tour. I can only assume that maybe he needs the money. I know he's just bought property in Jupiter and is building a house so I'm confused about needing money and still building a mansion in Tiger's neighborhood? I can tell you this about Phil (and I know this from personal experience), when he played in the Western Amateur in 1991 (Point O Woods) he flew in on a private jet as a amateur.  I don't recall any of the other players in that field who were able to do that. I could be wrong. It seems to me that money was not even a problem back in 1991. I guess he feels so strongly about what's wrong with the Tour that he is willing to throw away his career and legacy for a big pay day. But (as stated in previous posts) exactly "what is wrong with the PGA Tour"? And a guy who's been around the media for 30 plus years calls the writer of a book that is being written about him and just assumes that what he says is "off the record"? I don't buy that. I always assumed that someday (and maybe it will still happen) that Phil and Tiger would be 60 year old honorary starter at the Masters. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

I actually have some sympathy for Phil. He is good for golf and the tour.

He was good for golf and the Tour.

3 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

I always assumed that someday (and maybe it will still happen) that Phil and Tiger would be 60 year old honorary starter at the Masters. 

I don't know who Tiger will tee off with now. Adam Scott? One Masters win? Hmmm.

[Bucki1968]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

He was good for golf and the Tour.

I don't know who Tiger will tee off with now. Adam Scott? One Masters win? Hmmm.

Yeah, you are right. I guess at the end of the day(s), it's just...sad. 

[imsys0042]

I like this quote from the article @iacas just posted.

“Everyone is tired of Phil,” one exasperated player texted. “Just a general consensus.”

I wonder if winning the PGA pushed his ego even more over the edge.   Nothing worse than an arrogant know-it-all who has a good day and wants to rub it in peoples' faces.   I wonder if there is a ban forth-coming, or his "taking time" means it's already here.   No clue, since I doubt he's going to tee it up anywhere without a huge fiasco anytime soon.

I do think that the PGA Tour has more than enough ammo.  Actively orchestrating taking big name players from the tour is different than being open and showing interest.  The fact that the Saudis are so problematic with their methods and human rights issues, coupled with Phil acknowledging that and pushing on because he seems to have a hatred for the tour.  That's just a huge mess and puts the Tour in a bad place.  I'd take the PR hit and get rid of him.  If he keeps whining, then he'll do himself in further and end up with less fans.

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don't know who Tiger will tee off with now. Adam Scott? One Masters win? Hmmm.

Oh, Bernhard will still be around...

[klineka]

13 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

I hope this buries him (and any competing golf leagues too).

IMO I think another league (not one run or funded by the Saudis) like the PGL, could be a good thing, especially if they could somehow partner with the PGA tour like the PGL has expressed interest in doing. I don't think the threat/possibility of another league(s) will be going away anytime soon

54 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

But (as stated in previous posts) exactly "what is wrong with the PGA Tour"? 

I couldn't quite tell from your post if that question was directed at Phil or us. But IMO, there's plenty wrong with the PGA tour.

All my opinions of course but

• The product/tour as a whole is starting to feel dated and in need of a refresh
• Most of the tournaments are quite boring and aren't played on interesting golf courses
• The equipment makes it too easy for players to hit the ball so far without much risk of losing accuracy
• The season is very long and can get confusing for casual fans with the wrap around season and the short length of the off-season
• The Tour for years had a history of trying to scrub controversial/unusual occurrences from social media/the internet and only very recently have they started to lean into "fun" things happening on the course like them actually posting the video of Higgs being shirtless at the Waste Management.
• The Tour is very reluctant to change out of the traditional 4 round stroke play style tournaments (Yes I know there are a couple match play/team events) when there are plenty of alternate options and alternate tournament styles they could implement on a more regular basis
• There is no season long team component to the PGA Tour that could keep fans interested in a group of players, so pretty much the only players that get focused on every week are the ones at the top, not guys that are trying to make a cut to keep their tour card, not guys jockeying for middle of the pack finishing positions to help bump their team up in the yearly standings, etc.
• Especially true prior to the PIP (and still likely true even with the PIP) the top players aren't paid based on the value they bring to the PGA Tour, but rather they have to earn their paycheck through their performance. Even though the top players simply showing up will bring more value to the PGA Tour than players who barely scraped by and were in the last couple guys to earn a tour card
• There are too many exemptions and ways for players to keep PGA Tour cards as they age
• TV coverage has been quite poor, too many commercials, announcers straight up stating things as facts that aren't true, missing shots of players in contention, etc (I know the PGA Tour doesn't produce the broadcasts but they are the ones who sign the TV/rights deals for the coverage)

I know that for a lot of these things there are multiple legitimate reasons why they haven't or can't be changed right now, but I definitely think there is plenty wrong with the PGA Tour and there is plenty of room for improvement.

[hunterdog]

I would like to see a press conference with Greg Norman and how he can respond to Phil's criticisms of the Saudis; "scary m....f......", executed Khashoggi, policies of executing gays, and only using the Saudis as leverage against the PGAT. 

[imsys0042]

46 minutes ago, klineka said:

IAll my opinions of course but

• The product/tour as a whole is starting to feel dated and in need of a refresh
• Most of the tournaments are quite boring and aren't played on interesting golf courses
• The equipment makes it too easy for players to hit the ball so far without much risk of losing accuracy
• The season is very long and can get confusing for casual fans with the wrap around season and the short length of the off-season
• The Tour for years had a history of trying to scrub controversial/unusual occurrences from social media/the internet and only very recently have they started to lean into "fun" things happening on the course like them actually posting the video of Higgs being shirtless at the Waste Management.
• The Tour is very reluctant to change out of the traditional 4 round stroke play style tournaments (Yes I know there are a couple match play/team events) when there are plenty of alternate options and alternate tournament styles they could implement on a more regular basis
• There is no season long team component to the PGA Tour that could keep fans interested in a group of players, so pretty much the only players that get focused on every week are the ones at the top, not guys that are trying to make a cut to keep their tour card, not guys jockeying for middle of the pack finishing positions to help bump their team up in the yearly standings, etc.
• Especially true prior to the PIP (and still likely true even with the PIP) the top players aren't paid based on the value they bring to the PGA Tour, but rather they have to earn their paycheck through their performance. Even though the top players simply showing up will bring more value to the PGA Tour than players who barely scraped by and were in the last couple guys to earn a tour card
• There are too many exemptions and ways for players to keep PGA Tour cards as they age
• TV coverage has been quite poor, too many commercials, announcers straight up stating things as facts that aren't true, missing shots of players in contention, etc (I know the PGA Tour doesn't produce the broadcasts but they are the ones who sign the TV/rights deals for the coverage)

I know that for a lot of these things there are multiple legitimate reasons why they haven't or can't be changed right now, but I definitely think there is plenty wrong with the PGA Tour and there is plenty of room for improvement.

These are all good points.   The Tour needs to modernize a bit, mix-up the formats and their year long schedule is a bit much.   Maybe they should have their own silly season and put that as a more optional part after the official season end.   Honestly though, the value of the players and what they are paid is what everyone goes thru.   I once saved 3-4 million for my company in a calendar year.   They didn't pay me $3 million at the end of the year.   In the end, they may be very big, but there's a limit to what you're going to get.   High performers at any company are generally limited to pay bands, etc.   It's a little different in sports/entertainment but still, no one is bigger than the game.

I think a lot of golf courses are historical (Riveria, Pebble Beach, Colonial etc).   The TPC courses tend to have less personality than the classic courses.   That was a financial decision by the Tour and they should probably do some research to see which ones are truly considered boring.   They used to have the Sprint which had two pluses.   Hit even farther due to thinner air and it was a Stableford.   They should have a modified Stableford and encourage the pros to swing for the fences.

I can't stand any Sports commenting.  Too much speculative, fluff and inane conversation.  I also can't stand hearing stats all the time.

What would be good is a look at the Tour from the ground up and see what the common complaints are and put it thru the lens of modernization.

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Lynch: Apologies are a test of character; Mickelson’s revealed his

---

Apologies are less about atoning for past mistakes than setting the table for future comity.

 

One of the benefits of this saga is it has seemed to elevate the eloquent prose of golf writers. Most of the articles are really well written.

[Darkfrog]

 

1 hour ago, klineka said:

IMO I think another league (not one run or funded by the Saudis) like the PGL, could be a good thing, especially if they could somehow partner with the PGA tour like the PGL has expressed interest in doing.

I agree, I suppose my beef with alternative leagues is the current all or nothing aspect (e.g., I don't know if it is true, but I heard PGA Tour players might get banned from the PGA Tour if they join a competing tour). I think a partnership to make golf more interesting for the fans would be neat, if it isn't just a rinse/repeat of the same thing we see on the PGA Tour every week. I'm definitely not okay with the Saudi money and sportswashing though, so I'd be happy to see that alternative league concept vaporize.

1 hour ago, klineka said:

All my opinions of course but

• The product/tour as a whole is starting to feel dated and in need of a refresh
• Most of the tournaments are quite boring and aren't played on interesting golf courses
• The equipment makes it too easy for players to hit the ball so far without much risk of losing accuracy
• The season is very long and can get confusing for casual fans with the wrap around season and the short length of the off-season
• The Tour for years had a history of trying to scrub controversial/unusual occurrences from social media/the internet and only very recently have they started to lean into "fun" things happening on the course like them actually posting the video of Higgs being shirtless at the Waste Management.
• The Tour is very reluctant to change out of the traditional 4 round stroke play style tournaments (Yes I know there are a couple match play/team events) when there are plenty of alternate options and alternate tournament styles they could implement on a more regular basis
• There is no season long team component to the PGA Tour that could keep fans interested in a group of players, so pretty much the only players that get focused on every week are the ones at the top, not guys that are trying to make a cut to keep their tour card, not guys jockeying for middle of the pack finishing positions to help bump their team up in the yearly standings, etc.
• Especially true prior to the PIP (and still likely true even with the PIP) the top players aren't paid based on the value they bring to the PGA Tour, but rather they have to earn their paycheck through their performance. Even though the top players simply showing up will bring more value to the PGA Tour than players who barely scraped by and were in the last couple guys to earn a tour card
• There are too many exemptions and ways for players to keep PGA Tour cards as they age
• TV coverage has been quite poor, too many commercials, announcers straight up stating things as facts that aren't true, missing shots of players in contention, etc (I know the PGA Tour doesn't produce the broadcasts but they are the ones who sign the TV/rights deals for the coverage)

I agree with most of this. Sports is entertainment, so I'd love to see other tournament formats, like match play (although you sacrifice leaderboard drama on the final day), or team events. The top players do deserve more money relative to their lower ranked peers, but I'm not necessarily sympathetic to the plight of multi-millionaires. The PGA Tour could definitely stand to shed a little bit of the conservative/proper image for more than one tournament a year (WM Phoenix), but they also have to appease tournament sponsors.

TV coverage hasn't been great historically, but I actually enjoyed the broadcasts for WM Open and Genesis Invitational. Maybe those two tournaments were one-offs, but I am at least hopeful that TV coverage is moving in a better direction. I am pretty tired of Sir Nick Faldo in the booth though.

Also, the equipment/distance stuff doesn't bother me. I think many courses they play are such cookie cutter/template "tour" layouts, sort of a seen one, you've seen them all type of thing (exceptions for Riviera, Pebble, etc.). 475 yard par-4, driver, mid/short-iron, putt. In contrast, it was really fun watching the pros play #10 at Riviera.

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

IMO I think another league (not one run or funded by the Saudis) like the PGL, could be a good thing, especially if they could somehow partner with the PGA tour like the PGL has expressed interest in doing. I don't think the threat/possibility of another league(s) will be going away anytime soon

I couldn't quite tell from your post if that question was directed at Phil or us. But IMO, there's plenty wrong with the PGA tour.

All my opinions of course but

• The product/tour as a whole is starting to feel dated and in need of a refresh
• Most of the tournaments are quite boring and aren't played on interesting golf courses
• The equipment makes it too easy for players to hit the ball so far without much risk of losing accuracy
• The season is very long and can get confusing for casual fans with the wrap around season and the short length of the off-season
• The Tour for years had a history of trying to scrub controversial/unusual occurrences from social media/the internet and only very recently have they started to lean into "fun" things happening on the course like them actually posting the video of Higgs being shirtless at the Waste Management.
• The Tour is very reluctant to change out of the traditional 4 round stroke play style tournaments (Yes I know there are a couple match play/team events) when there are plenty of alternate options and alternate tournament styles they could implement on a more regular basis
• There is no season long team component to the PGA Tour that could keep fans interested in a group of players, so pretty much the only players that get focused on every week are the ones at the top, not guys that are trying to make a cut to keep their tour card, not guys jockeying for middle of the pack finishing positions to help bump their team up in the yearly standings, etc.
• Especially true prior to the PIP (and still likely true even with the PIP) the top players aren't paid based on the value they bring to the PGA Tour, but rather they have to earn their paycheck through their performance. Even though the top players simply showing up will bring more value to the PGA Tour than players who barely scraped by and were in the last couple guys to earn a tour card
• There are too many exemptions and ways for players to keep PGA Tour cards as they age
• TV coverage has been quite poor, too many commercials, announcers straight up stating things as facts that aren't true, missing shots of players in contention, etc (I know the PGA Tour doesn't produce the broadcasts but they are the ones who sign the TV/rights deals for the coverage)

I know that for a lot of these things there are multiple legitimate reasons why they haven't or can't be changed right now, but I definitely think there is plenty wrong with the PGA Tour and there is plenty of room for improvement.

Good points, but you make change by working WITH your players and fans and not by jumping ship to The Black Pearl with Davy Jones as you skipper.

[imsys0042]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

IMO I think another league (not one run or funded by the Saudis) like the PGL, could be a good thing, especially if they could somehow partner with the PGA tour like the PGL has expressed interest in doing. I don't think the threat/possibility of another league(s) will be going away anytime soon

 

1 hour ago, Darkfrog said:

 

I agree, I suppose my beef with alternative leagues is the current all or nothing aspect (e.g., I don't know if it is true, but I heard PGA Tour players might get banned from the PGA Tour if they join a competing tour). I think a partnership to make golf more interesting for the fans would be neat, if it isn't just a rinse/repeat of the same thing we see on the PGA Tour every week. I'm definitely not okay with the Saudi money and sportswashing though, so I'd be happy to see that alternative league concept vaporize.

IIRC The World Golf events that are basically run by the PGA Tour was the PGA TOUR co-opting Norman's idea for a world tour of top players.   I don't know what went down exactly.   Did Norman try and talk with the PGA Tour first?   Did he try and bone them from the outset?   How mercenary was the Tour about it?   What I generally hear is that Norman is bitter about it and still angry at the PGA Tour for essentially undercutting him.   I agree with both quoted statements, it'd be nice to have a few events that are alternate/different from the PGA Tour and the Tour can be a part of it.   If they won't share anything at all, then they need to bend as well.

PS.  Norman is a jerk for running where he did to get cash, no matter what went down.

[GolfLug]

I am curious to see if the PGA Tour will see this as a wake up call and invest in further reform (@klineka , agree with your post on things they can do better) or if it will see this as a victory emboldening them to maintain their MO - 'we are doing enough' knowing that this will silence any other lesser voices of dissent (like Charley Hoffman). 

[turtleback]

9 hours ago, iacas said:I don't know who Tiger will tee off with now. Adam Scott? One Masters win? Hmmm.

Faldo?  Vijay?  If, and only if, he ever wins a Masters, Rory? 

[imsys0042]

40 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Faldo?  Vijay?  If, and only if, he ever wins a Masters, Rory? 

Freddy Couples

Mickelson can be the honorary starter at the Dumpster Fire Dubai Open, brought to you by Depends.