Club Championships - Should Ex-College Players, Touring Pros, Etc. Be Allowed to Play?

[FlyingAce]

The men’s golf association at my club just had the club championship two weeks ago. The person who won was an ex tour player from Canada, relatively new to the club, belongs to the association but never played with anyone other than his family. No one knew who he was until he took everyone by surprise by winning and obviously hurt a few egos along the way. Normally the club would send out an official email to announce the winner with some background information and stats, but the headpro did not do that for the winner. So now, there are a few guys complaining that those who used to play professionally should not be allowed to play in club championships because they are just so much better. 

Same for the women’s association. There is a member who used to be a college player. She doesn’t play with the association either and the women’s association has a rule that only active members can play in the championship. And by active, they mean participate in the weekly play days. So this rule prevents this ex college player from participating in the club championship. 

I want to see what others think about whether it is fair or not to allow college or tour players to play since they are at a different level. 

 

[iacas]

If the rules allow them to play, they can play.

If you want to change the rules so that they can't play, change the rules to require some sort of minimum participation or something.

[JxQx]

Maybe I’m missing something, but isn’t the point of the club championship to find out who the best player in the club is?

I think it’s stupid they want to exclude players because they are effectively too good and played competitively at a higher level.

[Shindig]

Yes?  Answered as a question because I'm more unsure of it as a question.  Maybe contingent on amateur status, but most former college players will have that.

[GolfLug]

What???.😠Touring pros bullying club hacks? Doesn't sound right. They should pick on people their own size.

Club committee should intervene and make rules to protect them poor wannabes.

Edited September 2, 2020 by GolfLug

[ChetlovesMer]

If they are a member of the club, they should get to play.

All the club championships I've seen (which granted isn't that many) have a gross and a net champion. 

A hundred years ago I belonged to a course where The Club Championship had 3 winners. Men's gross, Women's gross, and a net champion. The Net champion didn't distinguish between males or females. Anyhow, one year a college kid won Men's Gross and a high school girl won both Women's Gross and Net Champion. The next weekend at the course all of these members were bitching and moaning about the Championship. NOT because the winners played on either their high school or college teams. They were bitching because they thought it was unfair that the players who won "Had more time to practice." Seriously, people were complaining because these kids worked on their game all the time. I thought they were kidding. They weren't. One guy seriously wanted the club championship to have a minimum age limit. His philosophy was if only people who had "real" jobs participated it would be more fair. 

I said "What about retired folks? They have more time to practice?" He just looked at me. 

[woodzie264]

7 hours ago, JxQx said:

Maybe I’m missing something, but isn’t the point of the club championship to find out who the best player in the club is?

I think it’s stupid they want to exclude players because they are effectively too good and played competitively at a higher level.

Exactly, you shouldn’t be penalized for being good, and rewarded for being less than average...although it’s starting to get that way in every aspect of life nowadays

 

21 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

If they are a member of the club, they should get to play.

All the club championships I've seen (which granted isn't that many) have a gross and a net champion.

^^^^^this

Edited September 2, 2020 by woodzie264

[DaveP043]

I've read about a number of different means to exclude certain players, but to me the Club Champion should be the best player at the club (at the time of the event).  I have a friend, typically playing off scratch or close, who is approaching 60 years old, played while in college in Texas.  Should he be excluded based on being a college player?  Should good players of high-school or college age be excluded because they're not the primary member?  Should a PGA member, manager at another nearby club but a member at ours be excluded?  I don't believe so, every player with full-time playing privileges should be allowed to compete.

[Bucki1968]

I have absolutely no prayer of winning our club championship unless I play completely out of my mind. Too many good college players and former professionals. That being said, I'll still go and try but it's gonna take some really good play and some really good breaks. I need to have the A game and hope they show up their C/D games. Usually there is at least one of them that shows up and tears it up. 

[mcanadiens]

Someone has to be the best and if they are a member, what are you going to do?

Understandable that it might rub people the wrong way if the only event this guy played in all year was the club championship. At Kittyhawk, our champion came out every week and kicked the crap out of us every week. That way, when the club championship rolled around, we knew the score. Other than the one guy that would give him a run, the rest of us would just wait to find out what he shot.

@FlyingAce, maybe your association's leadership should casually suggest to Mr. Champion that he not be such a stranger next year.  

[Sandy Lie]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I've read about a number of different means to exclude certain players, but to me the Club Champion should be the best player at the club (at the time of the event).  I have a friend, typically playing off scratch or close, who is approaching 60 years old, played while in college in Texas.  Should he be excluded based on being a college player?  Should good players of high-school or college age be excluded because they're not the primary member?  Should a PGA member, manager at another nearby club but a member at ours be excluded?  I don't believe so, every player with full-time playing privileges should be allowed to compete.

Agree with you Dave. I guess I’ve come around from my post on our Club Championship a few weeks ago.  At my previous Club turnouts for the Club Championship were pathetic.   The women had 6 players and a 16 year old high school player won.  The Men’s CC had 15 players.  In this case the tips at just over 7,000 yards were played. A lot of players complained at the distance but the Head Pro wouldn’t yield.  After he left the next HP did a blended tee and it dropped the yardage to around 6700.  Participation went up into the 40-50 range.

 

 

 

[Wally Fairway]

I think what the members are wanting is an Invitational, where they can set whatever rules they want as to who gets invited.
A club champion typically is the person who shoots the lowest score, and is a member of the club.

[klineka]

30 minutes ago, Sandy Lie said:

The Men’s CC had 15 players.  In this case the tips at just over 7,000 yards were played. A lot of players complained at the distance but the Head Pro wouldn’t yield.  After he left the next HP did a blended tee and it dropped the yardage to around 6700.  Participation went up into the 40-50 range.

That seems silly IMO that dozens of people wouldn't play it at just over 7,000 yds but they'll play 6,700. If you can handle 6,700 you can handle 7,000. That's like an extra 19 yds per hole if the course was playing at exactly 6,700 and then 7,050.

The only thing I could think of would be if the 7,000 yd tees brought multiple forced carries into play which they couldn't carry from 7,000 but could from 6,700.

Back on topic, I've never been a part of a club or played in a club championship, but I think any member should be allowed to play, maybe with the exception of professionals, meaning you still have to have amateur status to play, especially because IIRC retired pros can get reinstated as amateurs again so that would cover guys that played on mini tours years ago but now are retired from professional golf. 

[iacas]

58 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I've read about a number of different means to exclude certain players, but to me the Club Champion should be the best player at the club (at the time of the event).  I have a friend, typically playing off scratch or close, who is approaching 60 years old, played while in college in Texas.  Should he be excluded based on being a college player?  Should good players of high-school or college age be excluded because they're not the primary member?  Should a PGA member, manager at another nearby club but a member at ours be excluded?  I don't believe so, every player with full-time playing privileges should be allowed to compete.

There is precedent for not allowing a current pro to play in events, as you know. Of course, at some courses like Whisper Rock, the "club championship" is often won by a current PGA Tour player, but it's almost a rule (unwritten or sometimes actually written) that pros not play in "member events" (outside of pro-ams of course).

I'm talking about current pros, here, too. A guy who tried to play mini-tour golf and who got his amateur status back is an amateur.

Only quoted you because you mentioned the PGA member/manager who plays in your events. That's rare.

[bkuehn1952]

I believe it is fairly standard to make current professionals ineligible for club championships.  Reinstated amateurs generally are eligible. Having never been a member of a private club, I have just second hand information as to what really happens.  

The USGA tried to solve the issue of current college players dominating the US Amateur by creating the Mid Am.  A club could do that.  Yes, being the Mid Club champion is not as prestigious as being the Club Champion but it gives all the 25+ age members something to shoot for.

As many others have said, placing reasonable limits on eligibility (e.g. No current professionals) makes sense.  Creating an exclusionary eligibility standard to specifically eliminate one or more potential competitors is not right.  @FlyingAce your club should be cautious about trying to eliminate members who may be too good.

[Big C]

I feel like the men's club events should be reserved for amateurs, but I don't see the logic in excluding former college players or former pros who have regained amateur status. 

When you say "ex tour player," that is a bit of a grey area. I believe you have to apply for reinstatement through the USG&A to play in any sanctioned amateur events here in the US. Do you know if he has gone through that process? If not, and he is technically still a professional, I can see some of the argument for excluding him. 

The other consideration is what level of participation should be required in other events to qualify for the Club Championship. For instance, our club requires that you have had to play in at least 3 club events the prior 12 months in order to sign up for ours. This is to prevent "hired guns" from joining the club and winning the big prize without actually participating in the ancillary events throughout the year.

From your description, this guy plays in the club events, but generally with his tight knit group. If my understanding is correct, then I don't see an issue with that. I mean for me personally, if I joined a men's club and were good enough to compete for the gross championship, then I sure as hell would get to know some of the other members, but that's not everyone's style. Maybe the guy is just a bit more introverted.

[Sandy Divot]

If someone is paying club dues, they should be able to play in club events.

[FlyingAce]

7 hours ago, Big C said:

 

From your description, this guy plays in the club events, but generally with his tight knit group. If my understanding is correct, then I don't see an issue with that. I mean for me personally, if I joined a men's club and were good enough to compete for the gross championship, then I sure as hell would get to know some of the other members, but that's not everyone's style. Maybe the guy is just a bit more introverted.

No, the guy did not play in any club events since becoming a member. He only played with his family. No one knows him until he won. The championship flight was made up of guys who play together regularly, the ones who think they own the course because they are good. Out of nowhere someone not from their pack came out to sweep the title so some are just bitter.

I don’t know if it is due to Covid but normally the club would leave the scoreboard up at the clubhouse for weeks so members could see the scores. They didn’t do that this year. The club would also send out an official email to announce the champion immediately. They didn’t do that either. It’s almost like the headpro wants people to forget who won this year as soon as possible.