What Constitutes Slow Play?

[jsgolfer]

6 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

These are some good points. One course I used to play had marshals. I would see them under trees taking a nap.

Our Marshals are called Player Assistants, not sure what assistance they provide, they certainly don't speed up play on the course at all.

I gave this book to our head pro, didn't seem to connect. I'm not sure many have read it, but it does have a lot of good info with how to manage the course, to improve pace of play. Really good book.

 

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, Buster1054 said:

Can you provide sources for your claim that the core issue in slow play is the result of "people being selfish and not caring about others around them"?

It's an opinion. You can disagree with it, but it's just an opinion.

Let's recap, though:

• You state that golfers are slower because they were better back in the day. You offer no supporting evidence of this.
• I counter your claim with evidence that supports the idea that golfers are actually better players today (and a little bit that equipment helps rather than hinders).
• You respond in a kinda not super nice way over a few posts to say various random things, none of which address the fact that I've supported my claim with a factual bit of info, and you've supported yours with… nothing.
• So, now you're asking for more sources for things which are clearly, unlike the claim I made and backed with a fact, matters of opinion.

@klineka can reply because the topic here is about pace of play, and whether or not "people being selfish" plays a role in that is on topic.

What is not on topic, and which is done being discussed in this topic, is the idea of "golfers are better now" or "golfers suck now compared to my glory days."

[klineka]

44 minutes ago, Buster1054 said:

Can you provide sources for your claim that the core issue in slow play is the result of "people being selfish and not caring about others around them"?

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's an opinion. You can disagree with it, but it's just an opinion.

Let's recap, though:

• So, now you're asking for more sources for things which are clearly, unlike the claim I made and backed with a fact, matters of opinion.

@klineka can reply because the topic here is about pace of play, and whether or not "people being selfish" plays a role in that is on topic.

Yep, it's my opinion. 

I formed my opinion by distilling down numerous things that cause slow play (such as people not playing ready golf, people not being smart with how/where they drive their golf cart, people taking longer than 3min to look for their balls, people waiting until it's their turn to putt before attempting any kind of green reading, people not letting faster groups of the same number of players play through, etc) into a single common theme they all have in common and that is people being selfish and not caring how their individual actions (and thus their group as a whole) affects other people/groups playing behind them. 

If people cared more about other people playing behind them then they would do things throughout the round to ensure they maintained an appropriate pace of place. 

I don't have a scientific study to back up my opinion, I formed my opinion by logically thinking through what could cause people to perform the actions that cause slow play.

 

[ChetlovesMer]

23 hours ago, klineka said:

Because like I said in my prior post, pace of play is still an issue because the core issue isn't mismatched group sizes as you claimed, it's people being selfish and not caring about others around them, and in the last 50 years the general population (in the US specifically) has most likely become more selfish and even less caring of others.

I'd like to suggest it isn't selfishness or non-caring-ness ... I find that most people who are slow players do not know that they are slow. You might say "How could they not know?" I think they just don't get it. Fortunately, I think a lot of them can be trained. If somebody is willing to put in the effort to train them. 

[iacas]

10 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

Our Marshals are called Player Assistants, not sure what assistance they provide, they certainly don't speed up play on the course at all.

I gave this book to our head pro, didn't seem to connect. I'm not sure many have read it, but it does have a lot of good info with how to manage the course, to improve pace of play. Really good book.

That book is under-rated. It basically says if there are like 8 things that cause slow play, players are maybe one of them. The rest is course setup, signage, etc.

10 minutes ago, klineka said:

Yep, it's my opinion. 

I formed my opinion by distilling down numerous things that cause slow play (such as people not playing ready golf, people not being smart with how/where they drive their golf cart, people taking longer than 3min to look for their balls, people waiting until it's their turn to putt before attempting any kind of green reading, people not letting faster groups of the same number of players play through, etc) into a single common theme they all have in common and that is people being selfish and not caring how their individual actions (and thus their group as a whole) affects other people/groups playing behind them. 

If people cared more about other people playing behind them then they would do things throughout the round to ensure they maintained an appropriate pace of place. 

I don't have a scientific study to back up my opinion, I formed my opinion by logically thinking through what could cause people to perform the actions that cause slow play.

I'm with @ChetlovesMer. I don't think it's often about being selfish, rather, just ignorance.

[GolfLug]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

Yep, it's my opinion. 

I formed my opinion by distilling down numerous things that cause slow play (such as people not playing ready golf, people not being smart with how/where they drive their golf cart, people taking longer than 3min to look for their balls, people waiting until it's their turn to putt before attempting any kind of green reading, people not letting faster groups of the same number of players play through, etc) into a single common theme they all have in common and that is people being selfish and not caring how their individual actions (and thus their group as a whole) affects other people/groups playing behind them. 

If people cared more about other people playing behind them then they would do things throughout the round to ensure they maintained an appropriate pace of place. 

I don't have a scientific study to back up my opinion, I formed my opinion by logically thinking through what could cause people to perform the actions that cause slow play.

 

The slowest players in our league are all +HCP players. We usually have 3 or 4 groups going out on Saturday and Sunday. Our league 'administrator' puts them on the last slot. They are unapologetic and definitely not ignorant. We are usually done eating by the time they get into the clubhouse JIT to settle bets.

We also have relatively big money leagues too. These are players who have been playing for 40+ years. They all retired and mostly play weekdays only but god help you if they have a big game going on a weekend. They are friends with the course owner so nobody says anything. 

Having said that FWIW, worst rounds are 4:30. We just suck it up.

Edited January 24 by GolfLug

[mdl]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That book is under-rated. It basically says if there are like 8 things that cause slow play, players are maybe one of them. The rest is course setup, signage, etc.

I'm with @ChetlovesMer. I don't think it's often about being selfish, rather, just ignorance.

I think not being bothered to notice that the course is wide open in front of you but that there's two groups on the tee box waiting for you to clear the fairway on every hole is... almost definitionally selfishness! Everyone understands queuing and fairness. And maybe not everyone knows the ways to be efficient and fast enough without feeling rushed, but everyone knows how to hustle if they can be bothered to notice that they're being an asshole by not hustling 🤷‍♂️

[klineka]

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I'd like to suggest it isn't selfishness or non-caring-ness ... I find that most people who are slow players do not know that they are slow. You might say "How could they not know?" I think they just don't get it. 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

That book is under-rated. It basically says if there are like 8 things that cause slow play, players are maybe one of them. The rest is course setup, signage, etc.

I'm with @ChetlovesMer. I don't think it's often about being selfish, rather, just ignorance.

I'd agree with those, ignorance is probably a better word than selfishness but I do think in some cases people can and are selfish. The whole "I paid the same amount as you so I'm going to take as long as I want" shtick is absolutely selfishness, just like not letting a faster group play through when the course is wide open in front is selfishness, but obviously not everyone who plays slow fall into those two scenarios so there is ignorance out there too.

My opinion comes from the perspective I have which is that I try to be aware if there is a group behind us or not, if they're constantly waiting on us or not, etc. Fortunately everyone I regularly play with "gets it" and plays ready golf, doesn't take too long looking for balls, etc and we regularly play in like 3:30 if we aren't waiting on anyone in front of us. We hardly ever have to let people play through, maybe once a year at the most, and that's with multiple of my regular group shooting 110+ on a regular basis.

 

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Fortunately, I think a lot of them can be trained. If somebody is willing to put in the effort to train them. 

And if they want to be trained. 

 

1 hour ago, mdl said:

And maybe not everyone knows the ways to be efficient and fast enough without feeling rushed, but everyone knows how to hustle if they can be bothered to notice that they're being an asshole by not hustling 🤷‍♂️

Yep, lack of awareness of your surroundings because all you care about is your game/your group feels selfish to me. 

[WUTiger]

Part of slow play is a matter of perception.

In the senior group I once played with, certain players would ping me for slow play. Snide comments about me wasting time marking my ball, or following proper procedure if I had a ball in a hazard.

"Just drop a ball and hit it," one grouch said.

But odd occurrence followed when I had my first round in local Amateur circuit.  After I missed shots, two differnent players from the foursome took me aside and told me to take my time in my set-up. They said I was rushing my shots.

Solution: I quit playing in the home-course Senior group. Too much cutting corners on rules which could have gotten me a DQ in Amateur circuit play.

[mailman]

The problem with slow play is that it is pretty subjective. Ive had rounds of three and a half hours that have felt like marathons and five hour rounds that have felt like sprints.

However, having said that some of the things that dont help are;

1. Players leaving their bags 10+ feet behind them, walking to their ball, taking their shot and then walking back to their bag...through the entire round.
2. Players waiting for a green to clear from 250+ yards when they know full well that even in their prime they are NEVER going to hit the green from back there.
3. Players leaving reading a green UNTIL they get up on the green.
4. This one is a pet peeve of mine in winter, players insisting on removing the pin! Just leave the fecking thing in and putt your ball.
5. Players insisting on putting their putters head cover on at the side of the green before picking their bag up and moving on.
6. Players insisting on waiting for the correct order to play before taking their shot. I get this in match play but not in 4bbb comps. Just hit the fecking ball if you are ready and able to instead of standing around and waiting like a gormless twit 🙂 

Most of the above just comes down to poor course management and tot

How to fix it is another can o worms altogether 😄 

 

[jsgolfer]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

That book is under-rated. It basically says if there are like 8 things that cause slow play, players are maybe one of them. The rest is course setup, signage, etc.

I'm with @ChetlovesMer. I don't think it's often about being selfish, rather, just ignorance.

Agreed, very under rated book and I think lot of people are just not self-aware of what is going on around them.  However, being a relatively slow player () I do know that a lot of players don't like to have me playing behind them, as they hate this stance. 

 

[guitarget]

I don't play real golf anymore due to arthritis, but I play lots of digital golf using the Links 2003 program.  The play is as fast as I want it to be!😁

However, I watch a lot of golf.  Every time I see another pro doing something to slow the game down, I wonder how many amateur foursomes this is going to be inflicted on come Monday morning.  Remember Sergio's endless wagging?  OMG.  Now, some pros on the greens do this thing where they spread their legs and slowly walk from their ball mark to the hole while not stepping on the line.   Can't imagine how slow things would get if everyone did 20 waggles, or slowly walked the line for every putt.🙄

[Ty_Webb]

I think the answer here for the most part is playing without awareness of what's going on around you. I sometimes think that some people look to see where the next tee is and then put their bag down on the exact opposite side of the green from that point. The other one is when someone walks up alongside a big bunker, walks past the rake up to where their ball is, plays their shot and then comes out and walks back 20 yards to get the rake. If they'd picked it up on the way to their ball in the first place, they'd have less distance to cover. 

Each thing on its own is small - a few seconds here and a few seconds there, but four people wasting 10 seconds each twice a hole works out to 24 minutes in total over a round. 

Back in the UK, we had a saying - if you're going to miss it, miss it quick. The people who spend ages over their pre-shot routine and then flub it 20 yards are super annoying. Having said that, the worst offenders for slow play are normally better players - at least at private clubs in the UK (more like semi-private by US standards). The old duffers can get a four-ball round in 3:00-3:15 most of the time. Get a 3 ball of scratch players and if one of them is slow, you can be 4:30 quite quickly.

[GolfLug]

So it seems there is a dichotomy of reasons why better players are slow vs. hacks are slow.

Slow hacks, mainly because of a lack of awareness that they are holding up play or even the lack of understanding that slow play is a problem to begin with. They dilli-dally, and don't fill the gaps between shots quickly enough. The better slow players (at least from my anecdotal experience) spend a lot of time checking their mental box for every shot. One thing I learned is how stingy they are with loose decisions. They tend to be very well-galvanized from outside pressure to rush. The amount of time they spend reading greens is probably one of the top contributor in their slow play.   

[mdl]

On 1/25/2024 at 3:12 AM, mailman said:

1. Players leaving their bags 10+ feet behind them, walking to their ball, taking their shot and then walking back to their bag...through the entire round.

2. Players waiting for a green to clear from 250+ yards when they know full well that even in their prime they are NEVER going to hit the green from back there.
3. Players leaving reading a green UNTIL they get up on the green.
4. This one is a pet peeve of mine in winter, players insisting on removing the pin! Just leave the fecking thing in and putt your ball.
5. Players insisting on putting their putters head cover on at the side of the green before picking their bag up and moving on.
6. Players insisting on waiting for the correct order to play before taking their shot. I get this in match play but not in 4bbb comps. Just hit the fecking ball if you are ready and able to instead of standing around and waiting like a gormless twit 🙂

Great list. #2 might be my biggest pet peeve. How many times have you seen someone in the group ahead whom you've been watching all day drive it 220, drive it 220 then stand by their ball holding 3w waiting for the green to clear 250 yards away?

The other one for me is pre-putt routines like you're on the back nine at the masters in contention. No you don't need 3-5 minutes to read and set up each putt!

Edited January 26 by mdl

[Missouri Swede]

45 minutes ago, mdl said:

Great list. #2 might be my biggest pet peeve. How many times have you seen someone in the group ahead whom you've been watching all day drive it 220, drive it 220 then stand by their ball holding 3w waiting for the green to clear 250 yards away?

Just to play devil's advocate: I once hit a tee shot on a short par 4, it hit the cart path ... and hit it again ... and again .... and again.

It finished up near the cart of the two guys ahead of us. (They were on the green, left their cart near a bunker about 30 yards short.) Turns out they had been freely imbibing of fermented beverages, and so they drove all the way back and ...

Not a pleasant interaction.

I can't drive that green. Ever. (It's drivable for some guys, though.) But now I wait. Yeah, I know it looks like I think I'll drive the green, and that's stupid when you look at my driving distance. But I wait. 

[reidsou]

There is a lot that course management can do to improve pace of play. Here are some resources:

R & A Pace of Play Manual. Quote, "it is wrong to think that players are the cause of all issues relating to pace of play, but, nevertheless, the behaviour of the players on the course also needs to be examined.... That said, it will often require another person, for example another player or an administrator, to advise a player that he or she needs to improve their pace of play." 

USGA Pace of Play Resource Center. All encompassing recommendations. 

Pope of Slope website. Entertaining! 

[mdl]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:45 PM, Missouri Swede said:

Just to play devil's advocate: I once hit a tee shot on a short par 4, it hit the cart path ... and hit it again ... and again .... and again.

It finished up near the cart of the two guys ahead of us. (They were on the green, left their cart near a bunker about 30 yards short.) Turns out they had been freely imbibing of fermented beverages, and so they drove all the way back and ...

Not a pleasant interaction.

I can't drive that green. Ever. (It's drivable for some guys, though.) But now I wait. Yeah, I know it looks like I think I'll drive the green, and that's stupid when you look at my driving distance. But I wait. 

If everyone waited until there were no chance any cart path bounce or ricochet could end up even in the vicinity of the group ahead then every round would last 6+hours!