Dress Codes: Good or Bad for the Game?

[krupa]

22 hours ago, saevel25 said:

It isn't that big to ask a person to wear a collared shirt and not to wear blue jeans or cargo shorts. I don't get the people who make a big stink about it.

But "big stinks" go both ways, don't they?  Why do my cargo shorts affect your day at the golf course?  And what's so special about a collar?  With exceptions such as t-shirts with the f-bomb written as large as possible, why do my clothes matter at all to other people on the course?  

After experimenting with different clothes, I found that standard "golf clothes" are the most comfortable for golfing (shocking!) so I usually wear a collared shirt and either golf pants or shorts; sometimes those shorts are cargo shorts.  I hope I can still get into heaven. 

[jsgolfer]

I actually have a couple pair of golf cargo shorts that I wear frequently on the golf course.  But it's the ones with the zippered side pocket, rather than the flap.   

[mcanadiens]

I don't wear them personally, but the hatred of cargo shorts seems borderline irrational. Is the only real difference the placement of pockets, or am I missing something?

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

I've never seen anything to suggest that a relaxed dress code was detrimental to a golf club, but am more than happy to be educated/corrected.

Dress codes affect the image the course projects, and if you don't think that marketing can have an effect on the bottom line, then you haven't looked into retail science, etc. Little things like the texture of a floor, the colors used to denote specially priced items, the mild scents that stores put into the air… the smallest of things affect the way people spend, how they feel about their time there, etc.

Drive up to a club and see a bunch of people dressed in cut-off jeans and wife beaters. Drive up to the same course and see everyone in properly fit "classic golf attire." Your reactions, your feelings, are going to be different. They just will be.

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

Respectfully, I do not buy that there are multiple studies

I didn't say the studies pertained to golf courses. You've got to stop reading things that aren't there. (You should also post in topics that deal with things other than dress codes.)

These studies are not difficult to find. And I wasn't just talking about school uniforms, either.

But on the topic of school uniforms, you'll find some studies that conclude that there's little to no effect. These seem mostly to be related to high school students forced to wear a school uniform. Whether it's their rebellious nature or what, I don't know, but many/most of the studies show better teacher retention, lower discipline rates, and often better test scores. Something like 20% of the public schools in the U.S. now have a school uniform (almost all have "dress codes" that forbid overly graphic, sexual, or offensive clothing).

This isn't an opinion thing. There's nothing for you to "buy." You just have to do a little research.

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

The studies that you allude to, i.e. those about school children, are not a fair comparison.

That is an opinion, and I disagree. There are plenty of other studies - of adults - that show that outward appearance can change behavior.

It's not a stretch at all. Racism is rooted in the idea that how someone looks affects the behavior of people. The whole idea of victim blaming in rape cases is rooted in that. Appearance matters a great deal.

Again, you drive up to the same golf course as said above, and you're going to have different feelings, different reactions, different everything, even if everyone is behaving exactly the same.

How people dress affects how we feel about them all the time. But please, tell me how you'd be just as willing to hire a golf instructor dressed in a tank top and swim trunks as you would someone who looks "more professional."

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

The analogy with bowling is more apt, but importantly my understanding is that their shoe rule is for the protection of the flooring - beyond that you're free to wear jeans, or shorts, or any other item that may or may not improve your bowling action.  It is up to the bowler.

And yet… I've yet to see a bowling alley that lets you bowl shirtless.

And if you were a bowler, and you showed up to a bowling alley with people bowling shirtless, you'd have a reaction to that.

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

Although I personally always wear over-priced Footjoy polo shirts and wouldn't dream of swinging a club in jeans, I respect other golfers enough to think they deserve the autonomy to wear what they please.  Many golf traditions have fallen away, I hope dress codes will be next...

I don't think it will be.

Dress codes exist everywhere. Your mailman has a dress code. When you hire a contractor, you expect them to be wearing certain kinds of clothes. The jewelry store clerk should look a certain way. Your child's teachers have to dress a certain way. The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

[saevel25]

35 minutes ago, krupa said:

Why do my cargo shorts affect your day at the golf course?

It doesn't bother me at all. The big stink is from people who think the course has no right to dictate how people dress on their property.

36 minutes ago, krupa said:

With exceptions such as t-shirts with the f-bomb written as large as possible, why do my clothes matter at all to other people on the course?  

Because there are subconscious perceptions. Businesses understand this. They understand that if the people who play their course look unkempt, that it might turn away people from wanting to play there.

 

[Fourputt]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Dress codes affect the image the course projects, and if you don't think that marketing can have an effect on the bottom line, then you haven't looked into retail science, etc. Little things like the texture of a floor, the colors used to denote specially priced items, the mild scents that stores put into the air… the smallest of things affect the way people spend, how they feel about their time there, etc.

Drive up to a club and see a bunch of people dressed in cut-off jeans and wife beaters. Drive up to the same course and see everyone in properly fit "classic golf attire." Your reactions, your feelings, are going to be different. They just will be.

I didn't say the studies pertained to golf courses. You've got to stop reading things that aren't there. (You should also post in topics that deal with things other than dress codes.)

These studies are not difficult to find. And I wasn't just talking about school uniforms, either.

But on the topic of school uniforms, you'll find some studies that conclude that there's little to no effect. These seem mostly to be related to high school students forced to wear a school uniform. Whether it's their rebellious nature or what, I don't know, but many/most of the studies show better teacher retention, lower discipline rates, and often better test scores. Something like 20% of the public schools in the U.S. now have a school uniform (almost all have "dress codes" that forbid overly graphic, sexual, or offensive clothing).

This isn't an opinion thing. There's nothing for you to "buy." You just have to do a little research.

That is an opinion, and I disagree. There are plenty of other studies - of adults - that show that outward appearance can change behavior.

It's not a stretch at all. Racism is rooted in the idea that how someone looks affects the behavior of people. The whole idea of victim blaming in rape cases is rooted in that. Appearance matters a great deal.

Again, you drive up to the same golf course as said above, and you're going to have different feelings, different reactions, different everything, even if everyone is behaving exactly the same.

How people dress affects how we feel about them all the time. But please, tell me how you'd be just as willing to hire a golf instructor dressed in a tank top and swim trunks as you would someone who looks "more professional."

And yet… I've yet to see a bowling alley that lets you bowl shirtless.

And if you were a bowler, and you showed up to a bowling alley with people bowling shirtless, you'd have a reaction to that.

I don't think it will be.

Dress codes exist everywhere. Your mailman has a dress code. When you hire a contractor, you expect them to be wearing certain kinds of clothes. The jewelry store clerk should look a certain way. Your child's teachers have to dress a certain way. The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

You're stretching now Erik.  There's a big difference between expectations or requirements on the job and what is actually needed for a recreational activity.  Most postal workers wear a uniform, yet not all by any means.  My wife's brother has been the mail carrier here for 35 years, and he wears whatever is appropriate for the weather.  Today he will be wearing jeans and a flannel shirt, possibly with a hoodie over the shirt.  Last week he'd have been in cargo shorts.  He also has to provide his own car to drive on his route.  

My point being that the whole world isn't regulated by your standards.  I think that we're a lot more relaxed out here.  We mostly don't really care about what someone wears.  Character is far more significant, and that has no relationship to apparel.  I have friends here who leave the field, play 9 holes, then go straight back to the field.  They don't change clothes in between.  We have a farmer who came to league one Tuesday evening driving a semi loaded with wheat, just taking a golf break on the way to the elevator.  3/4 of the vehicles in the parking lot are farm or ranch pickups - several of the members may be wearing cowboy hats and it's not unlikely that they were herding cattle on horseback that day. 

Different strokes for different folks - standards aren't that standard when see how real people live and work and play.

 

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

We mostly don't really care about what someone wears

You do not, but a business might.

If I walk into a restaurant with cargo shorts and a cut off tee shirt, and get denied service then it's my fault for not knowing their policy. I've been to restaurants were I've had to borrow a suit jacket and tie from the restaurant because they required one. If I get invited to a private golf course to play golf, I double check the apparel requirements.

18 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Character is far more significant, and that has no relationship to apparel

I disagree. If I walked into an interview in bathing suit and a tank to it will speak of my character.

21 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

3/4 of the vehicles in the parking lot are farm or ranch pickups - several of the members may be wearing cowboy hats and it's not unlikely that they were herding cattle on horseback that day.

Expectations depends on location. If you are from a small rural area, were the owner of the course knows his clientele, then that might be 100% acceptable. You change location, opinions change. 

Should I be allowed to violate Augusta National policy if I go to the Masters?

There is nothing wrong with courses expecting a person to wear certain apparel.

[wildcatden]

Bad for the game. Especially the whole collared shirt thing.  Can't a guy just wear a t-shirt to play golf? 

[Fourputt]

36 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

You do not, but a business might.

If I walk into a restaurant with cargo shorts and a cut off tee shirt, and get denied service then it's my fault for not knowing their policy. I've been to restaurants were I've had to borrow a suit jacket and tie from the restaurant because they required one. If I get invited to a private golf course to play golf, I double check the apparel requirements.

I disagree. If I walked into an interview in bathing suit and a tank to it will speak of my character.

Expectations depends on location. If you are from a small rural area, were the owner of the course knows his clientele, then that might be 100% acceptable. You change location, opinions change. 

Should I be allowed to violate Augusta National policy if I go to the Masters?

There is nothing wrong with courses expecting a person to wear certain apparel.

I never made a single statement about violating anyone's policies.  My point is that you can't take a standard which seems appropriate at a course or restaurant or business in your locality and apply it everywhere.  These threads always turn into a "my way or the highway" rut, without regard to differing customs and situations in different regions.  Pushing a universal dress code just perpetuates the elitism that turns so many people away from golf.  

And by the way, if you wear a bathing suit to a job interview it speaks of your stupidity, not your character (unless of course you are applying for a position as a lifeguard at the neighborhood pool).  

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

You're stretching now Erik.

How?

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

There's a big difference between expectations or requirements on the job and what is actually needed for a recreational activity.

I didn't say there was NO difference, but it's impractical of you to suggest there is such a huge difference as to render the idea of a dress code as completely meaningless outside of "on the job requirements" or some such.

Retail stores have dress codes. Beaches have dress codes (except maybe nude beaches). Everywhere has dress codes.

I point that out, and you say I'm stretching things. I am not. Nearly everywhere you go, there's a dress code in place. It's more lax in some places than others, but it's there.

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

My point being that the whole world isn't regulated by your standards.

I've never said it was. Ever.

But the world is regulated by standards, and virtually everywhere has a dress code.

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

We mostly don't really care about what someone wears.

You live in the sticks and play golf in jeans. We have plenty of places that meet the same criteria here.

Please, Rick, drive on over to Cherry Hills and try to play in your jeans.

http://www.chcc.com/guest-rules

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Character is far more significant, and that has no relationship to apparel.

@saevel25 answered that bit for me.

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

We have a farmer who came to league one Tuesday evening driving a semi loaded with wheat, just taking a golf break on the way to the elevator.  3/4 of the vehicles in the parking lot are farm or ranch pickups - several of the members may be wearing cowboy hats and it's not unlikely that they were herding cattle on horseback that day.

Awesome. We have grape farmers here that would tell you similar stories. But not at Kahkwa, Lake Shore, Lawrence Park, or Lake View, and definitely not if they drove an hour or two and popped onto the first tee at Oakmont, Longue Vue, Allegheny Club, Sewickley Heights, Fox Chapel, Montour Heights… etc. etc. etc.

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Different strokes for different folks - standards aren't that standard when see how real people live and work and play.

Yeah, sorry Rick, that makes no sense.

Dress codes are almost everywhere, in all walks of life, and golfers who play at places with dress codes are "real people" too.

5 hours ago, wildcatden said:

Bad for the game. Especially the whole collared shirt thing.  Can't a guy just wear a t-shirt to play golf? 

Some places they can. Others, no.

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I never made a single statement about violating anyone's policies.  My point is that you can't take a standard which seems appropriate at a course or restaurant or business in your locality and apply it everywhere.  These threads always turn into a "my way or the highway" rut, without regard to differing customs and situations in different regions.

The "region" has nothing to do with it. You don't live in a "more chill state" than the rest of the United States. There are plenty of clubs within a reasonable driving distance of you that would not allow you to wear jeans on the golf course.

This isn't a "my way or the highway" thing at all, unless "my way" is whatever thousands of "ways" thousands of courses have determined is their dress code.

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Pushing a universal dress code just perpetuates the elitism that turns so many people away from golf.

Literally nobody is doing that here.

[Fourputt]

Quote

Literally nobody is doing that here.

How can you say that?  Looks to me like 84% of the members here are pushing in favor of dress codes.   

[David in FL]

8 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

How can you say that?  Looks to me like 84% of the members here are pushing in favor of dress codes.   

I don't think that anyone is "pushing" for courses that opt to not have a dress code to implement one.

That strikes me as different from appreciating those that do have them.  I'm absolutely fine with courses that allow anyone to wear anything, even though I appreciate that my club and the other courses that I play enforce one.

[DaveP043]

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I never made a single statement about violating anyone's policies.  My point is that you can't take a standard which seems appropriate at a course or restaurant or business in your locality and apply it everywhere.  These threads always turn into a "my way or the highway" rut, without regard to differing customs and situations in different regions.  Pushing a universal dress code just perpetuates the elitism that turns so many people away from golf.  

I'm going to pile on here, I don't think I've seen anyone pushing a "universal dress code."   I know that I almost always play and practice in clothes that would be acceptable to almost every (not all, certainly) golf course.  That means appropriate shorts or slacks and a shirt with a collar.  I feel better, and I think other players look better when dressed that way.  I also think golfers look better with their shirts tucked in, and the brim of their hats facing forward, but that goes beyond any dress code I've seen.  But I have no problem at all with courses that allow other modes of dress, whether that includes cargo shorts, blue jeans, or death metal tee shirts. 

This whole issue seems a bit like the slow-play issue.  We tend to stake out a side, and put people either on our side, or against us.  I think there's a middle ground, to recognize the variations in policies and preferences.  I belong to a private club, and we do have a simple dress code:  no jeans, and an appropriate shirt.  Maybe that makes me as snob, at least in the eyes of some.  But anyone who has been with me at Stoneleigh will tell you, I think, that I'm at the least formal club ever.  If I play with you at your place, I'll still wear my normal golf clothes, and I promise not to look down my nose at the farmers in their coveralls.  If you come to Virginia and play at my place, I hope you won't mind leaving your jeans at home and complying with the rather minimal requirements we have here.  We'll have a good time either way.  And next summer, when I'm at Prestwick or Muirfield, I'll happily put on a shirt and tie and sports coat in order to be admitted to the members bar and dining room, to enjoy the full experience there.

[iacas]

59 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

How can you say that?  Looks to me like 84% of the members here are pushing in favor of dress codes.   

@Fourputt, you said "Pushing a universal dress code just perpetuates the elitism that turns so many people away from golf."

Literally nobody is "pushing a universal dress code."

[JonMA1]

23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think there's a middle ground, to recognize the variations in policies and preferences.

Fortunately, I have yet to see any drama resulting from attire in the 6 years I've been playing. It seems like there is a tremendous middle ground. There are so many options for either camp, at least in my region.

---

I didn't answer the poll because I consider it a non-issue. Dress codes aren't good or bad for the game, IMO. If the golf industry is hurting, I find it hard to believe it has much to do with cargo shorts and shirts without collars... or courses which prohibit them.  

When I choose to play at a course that has a dress code, I abide by it and feel fine doing so. When I play at a course that doesn't, I wear what's comfortable and within my personal standards. Sometimes it's a collared shirt, sometimes it isn't.

7 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Character is far more significant

Agreed.

[dennyjones]

13 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

When I choose to play at a course that has a dress code, I abide by it and feel fine doing so. When I play at a course that doesn't, I wear what's comfortable and within my personal standards. 

I always wear a collared shirt.  

[arab_joe]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

Dress codes affect the image the course projects, and if you don't think that marketing can have an effect on the bottom line, then you haven't looked into retail science, etc. Little things like the texture of a floor, the colors used to denote specially priced items, the mild scents that stores put into the air… the smallest of things affect the way people spend, how they feel about their time there, etc.

 

I didn't say the studies pertained to golf courses. You've got to stop reading things that aren't there. (You should also post in topics that deal with things other than dress codes.)

I'm well aware of what marketing is (and am as guilty as anyone at being "targeted" and ending up buying a Nike polo shirt for a crazy amount because I see Rory wearing it on a golf course, but that's another story...) but have never been swayed by the existence of a dress code or by what others are wearing on a golf course.  In my 28 years of golf club membership nothing anyone has worn has ever offended me, nor has anyone's great style convinced me to part with my cash at their course, but on a number of occasions I have not spent money that I wanted to because I (or someone I was with) fell foul of a pedantic or arbitrary rule.  To clarify, my experiences are limited to golf courses in Scotland, Portugal and the UAE, but I would imagine that most golfers will have a similar story to tell.

But you did use those same studies to justify why dress codes are good for the game of golf, so perhaps it is not just me that sees thing that aren't there...

At least we all seem to agree that behaviour is far more important than attire on the golf course!  I think we will have to agree to disagree on the dress code, though. 

I'm yet to see any evidence that people playing on courses with dress codes (i) behave better; and (ii) do so because of the dress code that the course has.  I am open to being convinced.  Until that day, I hope that dress codes continue to be relaxed because, in my opinion, I think such a move will attract more players than it will put off (which is the original question posed in this topic)...

Edited November 1, 2017 by arab_joe

[iacas]

7 hours ago, arab_joe said:

I'm well aware of what marketing is (and am as guilty as anyone at being "targeted" and ending up buying a Nike polo shirt for a crazy amount because I see Rory wearing it on a golf course, but that's another story...) 

How people perceive a course is, in part, how people see the people at the course. Even the cart boys: are they in finely pressed, fitting, matching uniforms, or are they wearing dirty sneakers with wrinkled shorts and an untucked shirt without the course logo on it?

That's marketing, and it affects how people perceive the course.

I also talked about retail science, which tells us that the sorts of things that can influence behavior, decision making, purchasing decisions, etc. are moldable by the smallest of things.

7 hours ago, arab_joe said:

but have never been swayed by the existence of a dress code or by what others are wearing on a golf course.

I'll call bullshit on that one. Just because you're not aware of how your feelings changed, doesn't mean it's accurate. Everyone's susceptible to changing perceptions based on appearances…

And even if you are that rare special person, you're pretty much alone: appearance affects perceptions.

7 hours ago, arab_joe said:

At least we all seem to agree that behaviour is far more important than attire on the golf course!  I think we will have to agree to disagree on the dress code, though.

You've not said anything that's really an opinion, though. I think it's a fact that appearances shape perception. I think it's a fact that some business owners are served by having a moderate dress code (while others are fine with a lesser dress code). I think it's a fact that virtually everywhere in life, whether it's publicized or simply understood, has a "dress code" of sorts. Even kids in a regular school with no uniforms have a dress code. As do employees. As do people attending church, a wedding, a birthday party, the beach, a retail store, a fancy restaurant… etc.

Dress codes exist nearly everywhere.

7 hours ago, arab_joe said:

I'm yet to see any evidence that people playing on courses with dress codes (i) behave better; and (ii) do so because of the dress code that the course has.

The opposite is true as well, man. You've not proven anything either.

I'm not arguing that everywhere should have a dress code. I'm arguing the facts:

• It can make business sense for a course to implement a dress code.
• Appearance affects perception. You may be the only person in the world who isn't affected by appearances (except blind people, who if they can hear, are affected by accents and the sound of one's voice).
• I don't think anyone here really cares what other people wear on the golf course (so long as they're not their guest). Part of that is probably because of the dress codes, and the fact that the social dress code, even without a formal one, typically provides a base standard by which most golfers seem to abide.
• Dress codes are everywhere in the world. They exist all over the place. Some are stated, some are simply understood.

And @arab_joe, I'll re-iterate what I said before: if you play golf, consider posting in other topics. You only seem to care about the dress code.