Are Golf Courses Too Long and Difficult? Lee Trevino Interview

[neophyte]

The long courses don't really challenge the real long hitters like Bubba, John, etc.

the pros don't have to hit 100% full out shots to reach par 4's and par 5's.

The pros have reachable par 4's and 5's.

Bubba can hit the driver 350 yards.

He can hit a 3 Wood almost as far - 325 yards

He can hit a 6 iron 225 yards.

350 plus 325 plus 225 equals 900 yards.  The PGA has no par fives playing 900 yards.

Most seniors and women have to play par fives with maximum force shots.

I don't know of any courses that have reachable par 4's and 5's from senior and women's t's.

I know a lot of courses that have par 3's that require women and seniors to use driver and still not reach the green.

There are more women and seniors looking to play local courses than PGA pros.

If I was building a course to make money, I would focus on making women and seniors my target customers.

[Moppy]

"It is a most difficult thing to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat." - Confucius

I don't think there is a solution to this problem.

I like what Trevino said because I resemble that remark. I just can't imagine that it is the majority opinion among golfers that actually show up at the course, IF you gave each golfer one vote for each round they play in a year. Which is how economics works.

[newtogolf]

Trevino makes a number of points that may be relevant but depend on the site and purpose of the golf course.  He's trying to make a blanket statement for all new course development but that won't work.

If someone builds a new course in an area with a lot of professional golfers (like Jupiter) and hopes to eventually host a tournament it makes sense to build a long course that can challenge the pro's and accommodate a tournament.  Anyone that joins and can't play from the tournament tees can choose to tee it forward.  It's not just about distance, it's also about hazard placement, inclusion of doglegs, trees, etc.  Longer courses seem to be more punitive towards longer hitters.

If the course is being developed around a residential area and has no plans to host tournaments then Lee is right, there's no reason to incur the costs of building and upkeep of a course that is longer than 6700 yards.

[InTheRough]

I don't think there is any problem with courses being built long.  If there are players out there who get the most out of the game by playing 7,000 + yard courses then why do they have to be limited to shorter tracks so shorter hitters don't feel bad about playing shorter tees.  A lot of golfers just need an ego check and need to learn that there is nothing wrong with moving up a set of tees to make the game more fun.  That is the whole point behind having multiple sets of tees any way, so players of all abilities can play the same course.

[SavvySwede]

I don't think there is any problem with courses being built long.  If there are players out there who get the most out of the game by playing 7,000 + yard courses then why do they have to be limited to shorter tracks so shorter hitters don't feel bad about playing shorter tees.  A lot of golfers just need an ego check and need to learn that there is nothing wrong with moving up a set of tees to make the game more fun.  That is the whole point behind having multiple sets of tees any way, so players of all abilities can play the same course.

Exactly, A couple of extra tee boxes aren't going to hurt anyone. I played a course that had seven sets of tees, there was something for everyone. No point in eliminating a bunch of tees to psychologically trick people into playing further up. Educate them so you don't have to trick them.

[mcanadiens]

Don't get me wrong. Multiple tees is a good thing and can often make a big difference. If I'm at a course that offers five sets of tees, I'll usually pick the second closest, Still, there is a lot more to it than just the length of the course and playing forward tees on many courses. Number and severity of hazards is one. The condition of the rough is another. As was mentioned, fronting the green with bunkers is pretty rough on us hackers.

Personally, I don't have too many problems. Despite recent closings, we still have a bunch of friendly tracks in my area. That might not be the same in other locations.

[jgreen85]

Exactly, A couple of extra tee boxes aren't going to hurt anyone. I played a course that had seven sets of tees, there was something for everyone. No point in eliminating a bunch of tees to psychologically trick people into playing further up. Educate them so you don't have to trick them.

actually they do. My greens fee is higher b/c the course has to maintain that extra grass and pay taxes on the extra land.

[SavvySwede]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavvySwede

Exactly, A couple of extra tee boxes aren't going to hurt anyone. I played a course that had seven sets of tees, there was something for everyone. No point in eliminating a bunch of tees to psychologically trick people into playing further up. Educate them so you don't have to trick them.

actually they do. My greens fee is higher b/c the course has to maintain that extra grass and pay taxes on the extra land.

Tees boxes don't take up much space especially the back tees because they tend to be the smallest. The real problem with maintenance cost is in fairway acreage. Designers start the fairway ten yards in front of the ladies tee and it wastes tons of money maintaining that extra playing surface.. Cut 30-40 yards off the start off 2 or 3 fairways and you've saved enough playing surface for 10 sets of tees. Do it to all the fairways and you'll save a boatload. Because who really deserves a fairway lie after topping their tee shot anyway.

[colin007]

To the original question, not around here. Send like almost all courses near me are less than 6500 from the tips.

[RFKFREAK]

To the original question, not around here. Send like almost all courses near me are less than 6500 from the tips.

[IMG]http://images.cryhavok.org/d/13559-1/Whambulance.jpg[/IMG]

[jsgolfer]

The long courses don't really challenge the real long hitters like Bubba, John, etc.

the pros don't have to hit 100% full out shots to reach par 4's and par 5's.

The pros have reachable par 4's and 5's.

Bubba can hit the driver 350 yards.

He can hit a 3 Wood almost as far - 325 yards

He can hit a 6 iron 225 yards.

350 plus 325 plus 225 equals 900 yards.  The PGA has no par fives playing 900 yards.

Most seniors and women have to play par fives with maximum force shots.

I don't know of any courses that have reachable par 4's and 5's from senior and women's t's.

I know a lot of courses that have par 3's that require women and seniors to use driver and still not reach the green.

There are more women and seniors looking to play local courses than PGA pros.

If I was building a course to make money, I would focus on making women and seniors my target customers.

This our 13th hole, 185 yard Par 3 for ladies and seniors.  Only a couple of the ladies at our course can reach the green with one shot.  More seniors make it but still not a very high percentage.

[NJpatbee]

This our 13th hole, 185 yard Par 3 for ladies and seniors.  Only a couple of the ladies at our course can reach the green with one shot.  More seniors make it but still not a very high percentage.

That certainly seems like poor design since the hole is too long for most golfers that play the forward tees - unreasonable.  However, as long as there are multiple tees that are of the correct length for the anticipated golfers, I have no problem with how long the tips are.  I look for 6000 - 6200 and do not care what color they are.  At the same time there are some golfers that can handle a 7200+ yard course and enjoy doing so, so why not as long as there is a demand in that area?    I do believe however that too much emphasis is placed on course length when considering it for a professional tournament.  Take Pinehurst #2 conditions and put them on 6800 yards and it will challenge any level of golfer.

[colin007]

[IMG]http://images.cryhavok.org/d/13559-1/Whambulance.jpg[/IMG]

Lol! C'mon bro, how many courses around us have like 4 or 5 short short par 4s on them? Each of the 9s at Colonie have at least two short 4s.

[RFKFREAK]

Lol! C'mon bro, how many courses around us have like 4 or 5 short short par 4s on them? Each of the 9s at Colonie have at least two short 4s.

True, but I like the fact that I'm taking out my 8I rather than my 5I for my second shot of a par 4. It brings variety. If you play W/B at Colonie, I think you're getting 8 of 10 par 4 holes over 400 yards from the tips. Now, granted, I don't know how that stacks up when compared to other courses that are longer, but at 6,800 yards for a CR/SR of 72.5/130, I don't think it is that bad.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin007

Lol!

C'mon bro, how many courses around us have like 4 or 5 short short par 4s on them? Each of the 9s at Colonie have at least two short 4s.

True, but I like the fact that I'm taking out my 8I rather than my 5I for my second shot of a par 4. It brings variety. If you play W/B at Colonie, I think you're getting 8 of 10 par 4 holes over 400 yards from the tips. Now, granted, I don't know how that stacks up when compared to other courses that are longer, but at 6,800 yards for a CR/SR of 72.5/130, I don't think it is that bad.

Depends upon your goals. If you want to make the greens in 2 shots 8/10 times on par 4 that are >400 yards, that creates a lot of pressure on the tee shots or potentially long approaches from the rough.

[RFKFREAK]

Depends upon your goals. If you want to make the greens in 2 shots 8/10 times on par 4 that are >400 yards, that creates a lot of pressure on the tee shots.

Of course it does. @colin007 said that each of the 9s at a course around here with four 9's have at least two short 4s and I'm saying that a combination of 2 of the nine hole courses with 8 of 10 400+ yard par 4 holes isn't what I would consider short.

[Lihu]

True, but I like the fact that I'm taking out my 8I rather than my 5I for my second shot of a par 4. It brings variety. If you play W/B at Colonie, I think you're getting 8 of 10 par 4 holes over 400 yards from the tips. Now, granted, I don't know how that stacks up when compared to other courses that are longer, but at 6,800 yards for a CR/SR of 72.5/130, I don't think it is that bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Depends upon your goals. If you want to make the greens in 2 shots 8/10 times on par 4 that are >400 yards, that creates a lot of pressure on the tee shots.

Of course it does.

@colin007 said that each of the 9s at a course around here with four 9's have at least two short 4s and I'm saying that a combination of 2 of the nine hole courses with 8 of 10 400+ yard par 4 holes isn't what I would consider short.

Oh, I see. For some reason I thought you were stating the opposite in an earlier statement.

Yeah, even the course I play off the blue tees only has 7 holes that are over 400 yards, The 8th is 399 yards. The short holes really give you some reprieve with a wedge for a normal second shot. I sometimes play the gold tees and it is pretty unrelenting with a 506 yard par 4 to boot.

[colin007]

I just looked up the yardages for Colonie, I think they're suspect. From the whites, it plays close to 6000 yds and from the backs it plays close to 6500