BostonBrew

PGA Tour Players Anonymous Poll

43 posts in this topic

Golf.com does these occasionally. This is their most recent one:

http://www.golf.com/photos/pga-tour-players-anonymous-poll/tiger-woods-and-phil-mickelson#341423

The number that struck me the most was 38% of them claim to have seen another Tour Pro cheat. One of the comments was: "Yes, and it was knowingly. Everybody knows who he is, and everybody knows he does it."

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

Originally Posted by BostonBrew

Golf.com does these occasionally. This is their most recent one:

http://www.golf.com/photos/pga-tour-players-anonymous-poll/tiger-woods-and-phil-mickelson#341423

The number that struck me the most was 38% of them claim to have seen another Tour Pro cheat. One of the comments was: "Yes, and it was knowingly. Everybody knows who he is, and everybody knows he does it."

Makes you wonder who it is, doesn't it?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

You know from somebody that watches the PGA tour week in and week out I dont really agree with that poll.How can someone cheat with all the cameras everywhere?Plus you risk getting a bad reputation and possible ejection from the PGA tour.From what I seen all these tour guys seem to be honest.Ive never seen anybody cheating(I seen bill hass mark his ball on the fringe and was like "thats a penalty stroke" but forgot they are playing lift and place)When they do make a mistake they are always caught anyway and added punishment(see tiger woods augusta this yr with turning in a wrong scorecard).

Sounds more like we have some sore losers on the PGA tour(see sergio garcia)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by Blitz28179

You know from somebody that watches the PGA tour week in and week out I dont really agree with that poll

How can you "not agree with" this anonymous poll?

I would guess that there are a couple of players whose marking of the ball is dodgy, but the players know they risk a huge firestorm if they call the guy. Probably similar to the Elliot Saltman case.

http://www.pga.com/elliot-saltman-banned-european-tour-incorrect-marking-ball-green

I have played with guys who flick their marker under their ball and then place it an inch beyond the marker. When I have called them out on this it becomes very uncomfortable for the rest of the round. Others mark it at 5 or 7 o'clock rather than six o'clock and then replace it at 6 o'clock.

My guess is that these players exist on tour.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by Shorty

How can you "not agree with" this anonymous poll?

Did you not finish reading my above post?I clearly explain why I dont agree with it

Let me try again

Lets say there is a tour player that is doing the marking of the ball like you explain.I would think some of these tour players would be contacting the rule officials after the tourney about this guy(behind closed doors?).They do play for alot of $$$ you know..If its so obvious I am sure these offcials will be getting the same negative feedback on this cheater from others whos witnessed it too.I just dont see how a guy doing what you explain could be getting away with it very long on the tour where there is so many eyes watching.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know from somebody that watches the PGA tour week in and week out I dont really agree with that poll.How can someone cheat with all the cameras everywhere?Plus you risk getting a bad reputation and possible ejection from the PGA tour.From what I seen all these tour guys seem to be honest.Ive never seen anybody cheating(I seen bill hass mark his ball on the fringe and was like "thats a penalty stroke" but forgot they are playing lift and place) When they do make a mistake they are [U]always[/U] caught anyway and added punishment(see tiger woods augusta this yr with turning in a wrong scorecard). Sounds more like we have some sore losers on the PGA tour(see sergio garcia)

How would we know otherwise?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Blitz28179

You know from somebody that watches the PGA tour week in and week out I dont really agree with that poll.How can someone cheat with all the cameras everywhere?Plus you risk getting a bad reputation and possible ejection from the PGA tour.From what I seen all these tour guys seem to be honest.Ive never seen anybody cheating(I seen bill hass mark his ball on the fringe and was like "thats a penalty stroke" but forgot they are playing lift and place)When they do make a mistake they are always caught anyway and added punishment(see tiger woods augusta this yr with turning in a wrong scorecard).

Sounds more like we have some sore losers on the PGA tour(see sergio garcia)

There are lots of golfers every week that they don't show on TV. I've never seen them play, forget about seeing them cheat. I can imagine that replacing a marked ball in a slightly different position would be hard to detect on camera, anyway. Also, people who commit crimes (or cheat) don't think they'll get caught, so the consequences aren't even on their minds.

There are athletes at the highest levels of other sports that cheat. If you think professional golfers are some kind of higher class of human beings, I have a bridge to sell you.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I agree with Shorty and Bill...there are lots of little ways to cheat in golf.

While the majority of PGA Tour players likely play by the rules most of the time, when money is involved, a significant number of humans will cheat if they think they can get away with it. When I played JR golf tournaments, you would occasionally see a group of hacks all turn in low scores, yet none of these guys would ever go low when paired with legit players.

Marking closer to the hole makes no sense to me- too high a potential cost for very little reward, BUT, when the greens aren't perfect moving the ball fractionally to avoid a spike mark or imperfect lie might tempt some guys, especially when the cameras aren't around.

Players can also get a bit liberal on things like spike mark vs ball mark, relief from sprinkler heads/cart paths, entry points into hazards, not trying to drop exactly where they played from, etc.  The smarter players who are trying to stretch things might even plead their case with a rules official to make sure they are covered.

If a ball moves slightly while a player is addressing it in the rough, I gotta think there are at least one or two guys out there that would not call it on themselves when nobody else saw it.  Similar with a single leaf falling when a guy takes a practice swing.

It might not be cheating, but it seems like increasingly over the years I have noticed players taking advantage of dropping twice and then placing the ball.  I have had to invoke this rule occasionally when there is a steep slope, but find it interesting how often Tour players utilize this on relatively flat ground.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For years it's been known that Vijay Singh has marked his ball while on the green in a questionable way. Then there's the deer antler spray scandal and oh yeah his 1985 suspension from Asian Tour.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd believe there are a few guys that stretch the rules in their favor, sounds like everyone knows about them, but they must not be good enough to whistle blow on.  Once one of these guys is in contention for a tournament and steals a victory it will all come out.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Blitz28179

You know from somebody that watches the PGA tour week in and week out I dont really agree with that poll.How can someone cheat with all the cameras everywhere?Plus you risk getting a bad reputation and possible ejection from the PGA tour.From what I seen all these tour guys seem to be honest.Ive never seen anybody cheating(I seen bill hass mark his ball on the fringe and was like "thats a penalty stroke" but forgot they are playing lift and place)When they do make a mistake they are always caught anyway and added punishment(see tiger woods augusta this yr with turning in a wrong scorecard).

Sounds more like we have some sore losers on the PGA tour(see sergio garcia)

Most guys are never shown on a broadcast and have relatively few spectators following them.  I don't think it would be that difficult for a relatively obscure player to cheat where only his fellow competitors would be aware of it.  Using Tiger as an example of how mistakes are always caught is quite unrealistic since almost every shot of his is broadcast while it is quite the rev ers for almost all of the other players.

Just to pick a name out of the hat, what percent of David Lingmerth's shots do you think are shown on TV?  Yet he is in the top 30 on the fedex point list.

This is the same reason that people have a completely mistaken impression of how much Tiger swears on course relative to other players.  We see it every time HE does it but hardly ever when the other players are doing it.  because we see almost all of his shots and very few of the shots by the other players.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I have to agree about the TV coverage. I followed Paddy, Darren, and Ian Poulter around one year at the Honda. There were less than a dozen people watching that Friday.

If you are not in the marquee group, and not in the lead, you are not on TV. A guy battling to make his first cut is not newsworthy and is a non-story. If he is across the fairway in the rough and the action of addressing the ball makes it move slightly, if he doesn' t call it, it doesn't get called. If he moves a pine cone, straw, lightly touches the sand, etc., no one is watching. Two friends of mine said they were following a famous player around one day and they saw him in the pine straw and his ball had moved slightly. He played on and no one was the wiser. Maybe he didn't notice, but these guys were really floored. I think that the majority of guys do it right. All it takes is one clear incident and your name is mud. Vijay is still tarnished from the Asian Tour incident.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob Toski got caught marking his ball to his advantage several years ago and got caught. I once played with a guy who would pick up his ball first, then throw a coin down at the spot. Would always land a couple of inches closer to the hole.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I figured it would be something like not calling the ball moving as they removed loose impediments. But it would make more sense that more people have seen someone incorrectly mark and replace their ball on the green.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless that golf is considered a "gentleman's sport" where the players are expected to call penalties on themselves, there will be a certain amount of players that cheat by not calling penalties. That percentage of players probably (I don't have any evidence) closely mirrors the general population of people who cheat when put into a situation where they have to "call a penalty" on themselves. Such as when they fill out their taxes and fudge a deduction. There are variations of behavior in all groups of people, so I can say with 100% certainty that their are PGA pro's cheating. And some are caught, whether or not it gets out in the media is a different story.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Here is a caddie's version with similar results:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/survey-finds-more-half-pga-tour-caddies-have-witnessed-cheating

I enjoyed that. Thanks.

The other night, over a few whiskeys, I asked a friend a hypothetical. If an up-and-coming PGA Tour Rookie asked you to caddie for him, would you? We decided you had to do it for 3 years and 15% of the Rookie's earnings each week would be the compensation rate. And I warned him that I've read multiple articles describing the not-so-glamorous lifestyle of the typical Pro caddie. We both said "yes" fairly quickly.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by Shorty

How can you "not agree with" this anonymous poll?

Originally Posted by Blitz28179

Did you not finish reading my above post?I clearly explain why I dont agree with it

Let me try again

Lets say there is a tour player that is doing the marking of the ball like you explain.I would think some of these tour players would be contacting the rule officials after the tourney about this guy(behind closed doors?).They do play for alot of $$$ you know..If its so obvious I am sure these offcials will be getting the same negative feedback on this cheater from others whos witnessed it too.I just dont see how a guy doing what you explain could be getting away with it very long on the tour where there is so many eyes watching.

Shorty's point, though, is that it is an anonymous poll.  What incentive would any tour player have to lie in an anonymous poll?  It's the whole point about it being anonymous.  If a PGA tour player is asked on the record if he's witnessed cheating, then, sure, you can take any answer with a grain of salt because they probably don't want to be involved in any controversy.

But there really is no reason not to take the results of an anonymous poll at face value.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2017 TST Partners

    PING Golf
    Leupold Golf
    Snell Golf
    Talamore Golf Resort
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • Thanks for your questions Swede. Regarding data for irons, if I understand what you are asking, the driver data can't really be correlated. Each iron would have it's own ideal launch conditions (launch angle, spin rate, ball speed) which would be based off of the player's swing speed.  The ball is designed to perform differently with longer clubs than shorter clubs, but if you can get dialed in with your driver, you'll be pretty close with the rest of the set also. The driver/shaft combo certainly affects the trajectory as well, and sometimes guys are playing the wrong ball and the wrong driver.  But what I see more often is a player who goes through the fitting process when purchasing a driver and irons, then they play whatever ball happens to be on sale.  It would be like using a different driver every time they played!  When trying to optimize trajectory, the ball is a good place to start.  Why buy a new driver when moving to a different ball can make the difference?  Sometimes the ball will help some, but to get where a player needs to be a different shaft or driver might be needed also. A lot of guys will go through a ball fitting whenever they get a new driver, which is not a bad idea.  Usually, if your previous driver fit properly and the new one fits properly, the ball will work just fine.  I usually suggest going through a ball fitting at least every-other-season just to make sure.  Sometimes our swings evolve...maybe your swing has improved or swing speed has increased, or it could be the other way, but it's good to make sure your stuff is correct.
    • To be clear, I have never talked about "the Titleist fitting." I don't know what they do to fit players. I'm simply talking about their recommendation to start at the green and work backward, but ultimately to consider all the shots you play in a round of golf, not just ones with the driver. I'm not talking about "here's two balls, try them out." I'm talking about the idea of "here are 30 kinds of golf ball. I eliminated a few because they felt horrible off my putter. I eliminated a few more for poor performance around the green. I eliminated some more for poor spin or flight with my irons. Of the six that I had left, these two performed well with my driver, so one of them is a good fit. If they have a super official "ball fitting" process, I wasn't talking about that, nor was I talking about a "here is a Pro V1 and a Pro V1x… hit some shots and pick one." So… I wish you hadn't devoted that much attention to the "Titleist method" in your post when that's not at all what I was asking. My point was… I'm skeptical that the Bridgestone method (only hitting a few balls, not doing much to account for consistent tee heights, ball position, players getting "warmed up" during the process, etc., only using the driver and disregarding the rest of the shots) is a great method, either.
    • 1. Golf is elitist. So far from true but I still get way too many people who chuckle at my interest in golf- as if I should be embarrassed that I enjoy such a snobby pastime.  2. Just swing your swing- and stop obsessing about getting a "pretty" swing. Sorry, but that's not sound advice - when I get rid of the key elements that are holding me back, yes, sure- then I'll make the most of what I've got. I'll swing that swing. Until then, not a chance, now that I have learned about the fundamentals . There's work to be done to make my future golf far more enjoyable and competitive.   3. Lessons are expensive. Nope- look hard enough and you can find quality swing guidance at a reasonable price.  I agree with lotsa others above but these resonate for me at my level of play right and interactions with people now. 
    • Let me address the things you mentioned and clarify a little bit, because I think there is some misconceptions on some of the aspects. There is perception that the Titleist fitting covers everything and the Bridgestone only addresses the driver.  One of the biggest issues I have with the Titleist method is it's not a real golf ball fitting.  They give you a Pro V1 2-ball pack and a Pro V1x 2-ball pack and basically tell you to hit some shots and see which one you like best. So regardless of swing speed, handicap, launch numbers or anything else, they are saying you can pick this ball or that ball.  The other models in Titleist's line are not included and competitor models are not included.  I know for a fact that there are many players who don't fit into either of those models, but Titleist doesn't offer other options or comparisons.  They claim the Pro V1 and Pro V1x have the best distance, best short game spin, best flight characteristics, softest feel and great durability.  I hate to tell everyone, but there is no such thing as a perfect golf ball.  The laws of physics and aerodynamics apply to Titleist just like everyone else.  A ball that is designed for high spin will not be as long as a lower spinning model and will tend to curve more, and a ball designed for distance will not have the same type of performance on approach shots and around the green. Titleist also doesn't offer any data that shows how those models stack-up for players, or how they perform compared to their ideal numbers.  Sure, people love the spin that they get around the green, but do they need that much spin?  Is all that spin hurting them in other areas?  High spin actually gets a lot of players in trouble and costs them more strokes than it saves them.  Similar to the Titleist method that has players go through the process on their own, after a Bridgestone tech works with a player and their driver and shows them the data, a 2-ball pack is given to the player to continue their testing on the course with irons and short game.  As far as the number of shots on the launch monitor is concerned, you are correct...typically 3 or 4 shots with each ball is recorded.  It's not a lot, but it's 6-8 more shots over a launch monitor than a Titleist fitting. Obviously it would be great to do more, but a fitting could easily stretch to an hour per player, so a typical 4-5 hour event we could only help a handful of players.  A normal fitting takes about 15 min, so that is 16-20 players per event.  At that number, the cost of each fitting was right around $40/player.  If an hour was spent with each player, it would cost almost $200/player which isn't cost effective. On the launch angle issue, what I said was there are many things that can affect the launch, including the ball.  I didn't say 2* wasn't possible and I didn't say in the example I posted that only 1/2* could be attributed to the ball.  Honestly, I can't say how much of that 2* is related to moving to a different model...even if other variables like tee height, ball position were removed, the difference in loft will vary from player-to-player due to different swing speeds, swing paths, angle of attack etc which is unique to everyone.  Plus depending on what model is used first and which model is recommended could have a smaller or larger affect than other combinations.  You could probably make the same case for every category if you wanted though, right?  You could say how much of the difference in spin was caused by the ball change and how much was the result of some other variable?  Spin is more important than the launch angle, so even if the l.a. stayed the same, the drop in spin would have made a nice difference by itself.  But we know the player was launching the ball too low with too much spin, a lower spinning/higher launching ball was recommended and the results were a more efficient trajectory and an increase in performance. I believe the key is to be able to show a player in black and white what their launch conditions are with their current ball and how it compares to their ideal numbers.  If you can't show a player the areas that need improvement, then how can you confidently recommend the best ball for them?  The truth is, most people are playing the wrong ball, so it's not that hard to make an improvement, and honestly there are probably a handful of different makes/models that would be better.    
    • 1-5. Putting matters most. Uh huh. What are the chances I gain 2 strokes because I (or just about any golfer) 4 putted? It's happened. Rarely. What are the chances I (or just about any golfer) hit an errant tee shot and blow 2 strokes? 40% every tee shot for me. 
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Dragondrake
      Dragondrake
      (57 years old)
    2. Mistabigevil
      Mistabigevil
      (36 years old)
    3. Taylor56
      Taylor56
      (61 years old)
  • Get Great Gear with Amazon