Mickelson vs Watson: Was Phil Right to Be Critical of Watson at the Press Conference?

[mvmac]

Surely you don't hold the Presidents Cup to mean an iota though?

There have been, and will continue to be, a lot of good players on the International team. It's not like the US is playing guys on the Web.com tour, they have to go out and beat players who have won on tour, who are in the top 50, major champions, etc.

"America needs to address their whole mindset and conditioning to this event as they need to recognise they're playing a tough, talented, and motivated opponent, and will need to respond accordingly".

The US didn't lose because they didn't realize how great the European team was, I think they're pretty clear of that fact. The US players don't take the Ryder Cup lightly, they do everything they can to play their best.

[FarawayFairways]

Why not? Their teams are often good. At the PGA Tour level, again, and over 18 holes every point is essentially a coin flip.

You act like they don't already realize (or "recognise") that they're playing a tough, talented, and motivated team. What proof or evidence do you have that they think the European Team is not tough, talented, and motivated?

Weak argument. Assumptions out the wazoo.

Huh?

This has never happened before. Never before has, following a loss, there been so much talk about the "system" or "formula" in place for choosing, building, etc. a Ryder Cup team. It has not happened. What the heck are you talking about "if this is all people are going to do…"? They're going to blow up the whole thing and put a system in place. That they're even TALKING about it so much is WAY MORE than they've ever done in the past.

As for the OT stuff about crowds, let's stick to the topic, not try to recount (from a biased perspective) crowd behavior 25 years ago. :P

Sadly you only read what you want to see, there's not a lot I can do is there? I've gone over all this already paying paticular attention to Phil Mr Ryder Cup Mickelson, and his own less than convincing pre Cup preparation, where he even said he didn't want to play in it if he couldn't qualify by rights. He showed next to no interest in it until such time as Tiger's decision not to play was confirmed

Talking about it is a world away from doing it. Even Azinger recognises this is a medium term job, let's see if they're still talking about it 6 months time shall we before you declare that "they're going to blow the whole thing up"

So far as I can see there is a sizeable level of blame been levelled personally at Tom Watson (the same as there was for Curtis Strange and Hal Sutton) so yes it does have a familiraity about it. In this regard at least, I do have some sympathy with Mickelson, as he clearly put Davis Love and Corey Pavin into the frame as well, but that seems to have been overlooked

[FarawayFairways]

they do everything they can to play their best.

That's just the point, I'm far from convinced they do. What they do is as much as they're prepared to based on the value they attach to it. If they were that committed as real team we'd have seen at the very least the "four or five" who said they would do, turn up at Gleneagles. We'd have seen their self styled leader issue a rallying call at Valhalla instead of imaging how good he'd look with a gold medal round his neck. The vibes for this team were bad for a long way out, and it started long before that. Indeed, with supreme irony, I was constantly challenged by a sort of Tom Watson appreciation group on here as I sadly started spotting the gaffs he was making

I'm sure that in a decade or so time, teams will go into training camps and today's preparation will be looked back at as arcane and even laughable

Anyway, I've had enough of this now and have other things to do (the problem being of course is that when ever any says that, they always return to it!!!)

The bottom line is there's a lot more going on here and the problems run much deeper than hanging Tom Watson out to dry.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by FarawayFairways

Sadly you only read what you want to see, there's not a lot I can do is there?

Please. This is the old "you're not understanding me" argument. No. I understand you, I just don't agree with you, or care for the assumptions you make.

I quote what you say and respond to it.

For example, you say the U.S. team needs to recognize that the Europeans are tough, talented, etc. You're saying they don't currently "recognise" that.

I say they do and that you have no proof of it. You give a Sergio story as proof, I counter with a Bubba story that's almost exactly the same.

I've gone over all this already paying paticular attention to Phil Mr Ryder Cup Mickelson, and his own less than convincing pre Cup preparation, where he even said he didn't want to play in it if he couldn't qualify by rights. He showed next to no interest in it until such time as Tiger's decision not to play was confirmed

That's your opinion. I see it differently. And I take what he said afterward as an expression of how much he cares about the Ryder Cup.

Talking about it is a world away from doing it. Even Azinger recognises this is a medium term job, let's see if they're still talking about it 6 months time shall we before you declare that "they're going to blow the whole thing up"

The fact remains that this, what's happening now, has never before happened at this scale at all . And I'll take that bet on "six months from now."

That's just the point, I'm far from convinced they do.

So we disagree on that. Moving on…

Please multiquote. Thanks.

If they were that committed as real team we'd have seen at the very least the "four or five" who said they would do, turn up at Gleneagles.

Why? The timing on that was SHIT. I wouldn't have gone if I were in their position. It's not like the course is all that unique. It's the same kind of golf course they play every week, while they had a DIFFERENT type of golf course hosting a major for which many needed to prepare.

The bottom line is there's a lot more going on here and the problems run much deeper than hanging Tom Watson out to dry.

Which is exactly what Phil said: that there are problems. He barely mentioned Tom Watson in his conference. He talked about personal accountability of the players, and player investment. Then added a little jab at Watson's lousy communication.

[Phil McGleno]

Ever consider that Euros have to care more about the Ryder Cup because the Sergios and Montgomeries of the world have nothing else on which to hang their hat-Monty never won a major Sergio probably never will-Of course they say they care about the Ryder Cup more. Plus winning makes it easier to say you care about it and losing makes it easier to say you dont. I'm glad Phil said what he said. Watson sucked, his picks sucked, his strategies sucked, his communication sucked, his blame game sucked, and the U.S. needs to have a 'captain farm' to grow and breed future captains.-Not Paul Azinger but using some of his ideas. Four picks with team involvement-Etc.

[Golfingdad]

Looks like the seeds were planted for Phils comments the night before, by Tom Watson himself: http://espn.go.com/golf/rydercup14/story/_/id/11636089/captain-tom-watson-ripped-us-team-ryder-cup-meeting-angering-phil-mickelson

Quote:

Four sources who witnessed the proceedings in the U.S. team room at the Gleneagles Hotel said that Watson took no responsibility for any shortcomings, scoffed at a gift that the U.S. team members gave him, ridiculed several European team players and started the proceedings by denigrating the Americans' play that afternoon.

Watson started by saying, according to all of the sources: "You stink at foursomes.''

After praising the rookie team of Patrick Reed and Jordan Spieth , Watson went through the Sunday singles pairings and ridiculed several members of the European side as he went through the matchups. Soon after, Watson was presented a gift by Furyk, a replica of the Ryder Cup trophy that was signed by every member of the team. Instead of thanking them, the sources said Watson said the gift meant nothing to him if the players didn't get the real Ryder Cup on Sunday and that he wanted to be holding it aloft on the green in victory.

Said one of the sources: "That's almost verbatim. He said it basically means nothing to me.''

Added another: "It was fairly shocking that he treated this thoughtful gift with such disdain.''

When Watson was done, other players, as is standard, were invited to speak, and several did, as well as assistant captains Andy North, Raymond Floyd and Steve Stricker . (North also works as an ESPN golf commentator.) Mickelson went last, and he came to the front of the room, then sat in a chair with his back to Watson while he addressed the team, telling it, among other things, that he felt good about a comeback.

"Phil went player by player and told a story about each one," one source in the room said. "It changed the tenor of the room from completely negative and heads down to 'Let's give this a go tomorrow.' He gave almost 180 degrees difference than what Tom did.''

[iacas]

Looks like the seeds were planted for Phils comments the night before, by Tom Watson himself: http://espn.go.com/golf/rydercup14/story/_/id/11636089/captain-tom-watson-ripped-us-team-ryder-cup-meeting-angering-phil-mickelson

Does anyone doubt that the U.S. team didn't agree with Phil and remain silent for that reason now? That Phil wasn't acting as a team leader both Saturday night and Sunday afternoon?

[Aflighter]

wow.i always liked tom and would never think of him like that but everyone knows older guys his age are cranky and can be like that.Im huge phil fan and have never believed or thought of him as a fake but as someone whos honest and not afraid to speak his mind.A phony would definitely not speak his mind and cover up his lies.For tom to act as he could care less about their gift says a lot.Too bad phils to nice because he should've really ripped into him publicly after that happening Saturday night.

[misty_mountainhop]

That sort of stuff has already come out. Have you not seen the "insider" reports that talk about the dissension in the ranks? Has anyone (except perhaps Webb Simpson) had a positive story to say about Tom?

The void is evidence in and of itself.

I disagree that he was "BAD." He spoke up because he was the leader.

I don't think it was trite at all, nor do I agree that there was a better way to go about it.

Sometimes you have to poke the bear to get the change that's required. Put it another way: Phil tried being "nice" the 7 previous times they lost. How'd that work out for him?

Then click "edit" and edit your post.

Why would they?

The point was made. The discussions have been done. Why pile on now.

Where are the public confirmations that people disagreed? Again, the absence of such is at least equally telling.

.....

I've heard some second- or third-hand 'insider' reports. As standards of evidence go though, it's not even going beyond the editor's desk, let alone out for peer review.

Phil could have been acting as the leader, certainly. Personally, I don't buy that all 12 were in with him and I don't think I buy that they were in agreement with Mickleson's approach to it. Opinion though; as is all of the writing and words in the last week.

Your position (and that of many others) seems to be that Phil did what he did for the greater good. Maybe and I don't deny it might drive some change for the better in terms of the U.S. Ryder Cup setup. However, I don't buy that he did it the right way - at all. In lieu of further (any) actual evidence, I'm inclined to think that Mickleson did what he did in a fit of pique and mean-spirited spite, perhaps driven by frustration at losing.

Edit:

Does anyone doubt that the U.S. team didn't agree with Phil and remain silent for that reason now? That Phil wasn't acting as a team leader both Saturday night and Sunday afternoon?

Wow. Well, assuming that article is actually true (they quote multiple sources, apparently, so I assume with time some will become known) I think I'd have to agree. If that's true, Watson's actions are pretty contemptible and Mickleson probably was actually being restrained last Sunday. Some turn up for the books if that's substantiated.

[dsc123]

Well that changes things.

[mvmac]

That's just the point, I'm far from convinced they do. What they do is as much as they're prepared to based on the value they attach to it. If they were that committed as real team we'd have seen at the very least the "four or five" who said they would do, turn up at Gleneagles.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, are you saying the American players should have played in the Johnnie Walker at Gleneagles last year? Or that they should have traveled to Gleneagles earlier? Rory showed up on Sunday as did most of the European team.

The players actually end up playing more practice rounds than they do at a normal tour event. The course wasn't tricky and doesn't require that much course knowledge.

The US, for the most part, lost because they were outplayed and couldn't finish off some matches, not because they didn't care enough or realize how strong the European team was.

The bottom line is there's a lot more going on here and the problems run much deeper than hanging Tom Watson out to dry.

Agree. Phil's comments are going to bring about some much needed change.

Looks like the seeds were planted for Phils comments the night before, by Tom Watson himself: http://espn.go.com/golf/rydercup14/story/_/id/11636089/captain-tom-watson-ripped-us-team-ryder-cup-meeting-angering-phil-mickelson

Sounds like my coach in college, grumpy old man LOL

[ghalfaire]

I voted yes.  Tom Watson was a great player but just doesn't have a "modern" management approach.  In today's world it is important to get some "buy in" from subordinates on decisions made affecting their performance.  As to Phil's timing, I would say he picked the time and place where he would be heard by the most people who have an interest in the subject.  Probably cost him his chance to ever be captain but then I would think he knew that and felt the message was important enough to be worth it.

[MSchott]

wow.i always liked tom and would never think of him like that but everyone knows older guys his age are cranky and can be like that.Im huge phil fan and have never believed or thought of him as a fake but as someone whos honest and not afraid to speak his mind.A phony would definitely not speak his mind and cover up his lies.For tom to act as he could care less about their gift says a lot.Too bad phils to nice because he should've really ripped into him publicly after that happening Saturday night.

Not sure where to start in commenting on this post.

First, not everyone knows that guys Watson's age are cranky and it's ignorant to say so. Watson can be cranky I'm sure but what makes him admirable is his honesty and his integrity. He's a stand up guy.

Second, can I ask that you not post like you are texting on your phone? Capitalize the first word of sentences and  use proper punctuation. This will make your posts easier to comprehend. Also, it's respectful to capitalize names.

[Mulligan Jeff]

So Watson rips the U.S. Team Saturday night while spouses and significant others were present. And scoffs at a gift presented to him from the team. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. Hail Phil for his comments at press conference.

[phan52]

Looks like the seeds were planted for Phils comments the night before, by Tom Watson himself: http://espn.go.com/golf/rydercup14/story/_/id/11636089/captain-tom-watson-ripped-us-team-ryder-cup-meeting-angering-phil-mickelson

I was kind of up in the air about how I felt regarding the goings-on on Sunday. This clarifies it for me and I am totally in Phil's cam now. In fact, I admire what he did, particularly on Saturday night. He knew that their only chance was to promote a positive vibe after Watson poisoned the well.

I am sure somebody is writing a book about this Ryder Cup as we speak and I will be sure to read it. It will certainly stain Watson's legacy.

[iacas]

Probably cost him his chance to ever be captain but then I would think he knew that and felt the message was important enough to be worth it.

I doubt very much it cost him a chance.

[newtogolf]

I actually agree with you there. Silly time to present it and silly gift.

Just thought Watson could have accepted it and gone about his business.

It was a gesture by the team and he acted like an ungrateful, belligerent old man.

He demonstrated no ability to motivate a team that had no reason to listen or react to his leadership except for his actions and respect for the position.  Watson needed to motivate with a carrot.  He wasn't smart enough to realize these guys weren't a college golf team.  They are all millionaires with many other things to do, they chose to represent the US with the intentions of winning.  Golf is all about confidence, ripping them on Saturday just demonstrates how out of touch he is.

Sorry Tom, you had a great career but you failed this time as RC Captain.

[mvmac]

Probably cost him his chance to ever be captain but then I would think he knew that and felt the message was important enough to be worth it.

Why would it cost him a chance to be captain?