Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 4006 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

0  

  1. 1. What is a correct pace of play?

    • 4 1/2 hours
      8
    • keep up with group in front
      37


Recommended Posts

Posted

I think it's only contentious because there are people here who assume that we all play under the same parameters.  People who play at the same course all the time and know every tee shot before they get there, and have greens and tees that are close to each other should get around in under 4 hours.  And quite easily, walking or riding.  On the other hand, a foursome of guys playing a course they've never (or rarely) played before, with drives between greens and tees, and several other golfer out on the course, and a cart girl who comes through and stops each group for a minute to sell stuff, well, that's going to take longer.

I only judge the speed of my rounds by where I am in relation to the group in front of me.  And, lately, around here, 4:15 is pretty common and pleasant.

Another reason for the possible tension on these threads is that we also like to get a little hyperbolic at times ...

Seriously??  The difference between "norm" and "death slog" is FIVE minutes???  Come on, man.

Alright, I'll give you 4:20. ;-) But I'm looking to cut my throat with a wedge if it's any longer than that!

  • Upvote 2

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Depends on the course but IMO a par 71/72 course in the 6500-7000 yard range should play at 8 to 16 minutes per hole. With less time for par 3's and more for par 5's it usually works out to about 3:50.

Dave :-)

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
I play with a group of seniors on Saturday ... and this is a retirement community ... and some of the golfer are 70'ish ... most are certainly late 60's ... and the ladies that usually tee of before us ... probably drive the ball a good 175 yards ... play in under 4 hours ... With that said I am all for a good place of play and for me that means I do not wait for the group in front of me ... but I hate the concept that I am obligated by some unspoken rule that I must keep with the group in front, just to make someone else happy ... I will play a round in less that 4 hrs I can guarantee that ...

Ken Proud member of the iSuk Golf Association ... Sponsored by roofing companies across the US, Canada, and the UK

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

every time i play that takes 4 hours, there is a lot of waiting and it sucks.  3:30 should be the "normal" pace of play.

Colin P.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

3:30 can be tough to do on a full course as a foursome. Some par 4's would have to be played in the 10 minute range to get there and that can be tough. Everyone has to avoid trouble and the green would have to be clear to play second shots upon arriving at the balls.

Edit. I just looked at a few cards I have with HBH POP. Not one par 4 is sub 12 minutes. One is a private course that plays fast compared to a public course with a POP of 3:52.

Dave :-)

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
Not at all.  Speed has very little to do with how many times you his the ball.  It has everything to do with how you manage your time during the round, and some better golfers are among the worst at managing their pace of play!

Yes, I've played with some good players that play pretty slow.

I think some higher handicappers can take longer because they haven't learned how to play ready golf yet. They wait to get their yardage, figure out what club to hit after someone else has played their shot.

Sorry, but you're wrong. If you think a 4.5 hour round isn't slow, it's because your group is slow. A couple 15 minute holes...sure, maybe. averaging 15 minutes a hole? You're slow.

Yeah but this is coming from a guy that plays speed golf and thinks a 3 hour round is slow ;-)

Another reason for the possible tension on these threads is that we also like to get a little hyperbolic at times ...

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Yeah but this is coming from a guy that plays speed golf and thinks a 3 hour round is slow

Hahaha

Hey, I never said 3 hours is slow. Unless you're riding by yourself with a wide open course. ;-)

Any time under 4 hours is acceptable IMO

Ryan M
 
The Internet Adjustment Formula:
IAD = ( [ADD] * .96 + [EPS] * [1/.12] ) / (1.15)
 
IAD = Internet Adjusted Distance (in yards)
ADD = Actual Driver Distance (in yards)
EPS = E-Penis Size (in inches)
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

For me it's less about the total time than the frustration of standing around watching the madness. A half hour or whatever isn't going to disrupt my weekly schedule. I may eat dinner a little later that day. But that is nothing compared to watching someone getting out of position looking for errant shots before attempting to hit out of the gunch to save double like the US Open is about to slip off the hook. I can deal with a decent player lining up putts like Furyk because all his putts together don't take as much time as the golfer chasing balls into weeds just a couple times. It's not the number of strokes it's the reasons that cause the of strokes. To chase balls and be quick means no dawdling doing everything else. I see it but those types are the exception.

Dave :-)

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I don't believe a single person who says a 4.5 hour foursome round is slow plays golf. Y'all need to get off the website and golf every now and then. 4.5 is an acceptable weekend foursome round where you might wait every now and the. If your group has a low scoring hole. 4 is rushed unless it is a bunch of scratch golfers who go fairway/green a high percentage of the time and you really know the course. 5 is when the round starts to be unbearable. It is dependent on the course though. Short and wide open courses should play slightly faster obviously.

If you are only waiting "every now and then" then 4.5 hours is an absurdly long time for a round of golf to take.  Unless those "now and then" waits are a half hour each.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Quote:

What exactly does correct pace of play mean? Does it mean play at a pace of 4 1/2 hours or less? Or is it what I believe to maintain your position behind the group ahead?

Many courses have a rated "Pace of Play" under a system developed by the USGA.  [ http://www.usga.org/MicroSiteContent.aspx?id=21474856265 ]  As the USGA states, "the USGA Pace Rating answers the question: How fast should a group of four average golfers play on a busy day?"

There are a couple courses in our area that have "Pace of Play" ratings close to the 4:30 mark.  There are long walks between a number of greens/tees and it is a bit like walking an extra 5-6 holes.  The average golfer is going to have a double digit handicap and occasionally will have to look for a golf ball.

If a group of 4 walkers were on pace to finish within the rated "Pace of Play", they should not be subject to warnings to pick up their pace.  If a hole or two opens up in front of them, it would be appropriate for them to allow faster trailing groups to play through, within reason.  I also think it is appropriate for groups of 4 average golfers, who are likely to take the full rated time period to play, to schedule their play later in the morning.  Let the "rabbits" do their thing at sunrise.

Frankly, I avoid playing on weekend mornings at popular courses with high "Pace of Play" ratings.  It is too hard to play decent golf while idly watching the foursome in front stumble around the course in 4 1/2 hours.

Brian Kuehn

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

You're gonna have a tough sell there.  I ride virtually 100%, but know plenty of walkers that play quickly.  They might struggle to get around in 2:30, but they can easily keep it under 3:30 without breaking a sweat and generally can keep up with riding partners.....

2:45 walking 18 holes without anyone in the front of me, and no sense of urgency or rush. 2:30 might be pushing it, I have to try when the course gets empty because of "winter" and slight rain.

Driver:     TaylorMade Jetspeed, stiff

Fws:        Taylormade RBZ 5 wood

Hybrids:   TaylorMade RBZ Stage 2 rescue 3H

Irons:      Callaway X2 Hot Pro

Wedges:  Cleveland CG16 54*/14

               Ping Glide WS 58*

Putter:     TaylorMade Daddy Long Legs


Posted

If all foursomes are playing 4 hours is a good target time for most courses I have played.  4.5 hours is slow and 5 hours I will not come back under the same circumstances.  I normally play once on weekdays and once on the weekend and the weekday round is under less crowded conditions and is about 3 hours.  I have also learned the less crowded tee times on my favorite courses and can usually do less than 4 hours on a weekend afternoon.

I may not be typical, but on weekends I have often paid $20+ in additional green fees to play a less crowded course (now I just wait until 2pm and get the senior rate).

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Unfortunately, "correct" pace of play is whatever the course says it should be.  That doesn't mean that a player shouldn't do everything he can to do better than that.  Posted policy is usually the maximum time expected, not the optimal time to play.  Courses too often err exactly as your scenario instead of encouraging players to play at the best pace possible.

Yes this is exactly what is happening, the management has even said they would like to see faster rounds but they don't seem to know how to "educate" the public on how to achieve this, people nowadays are just so damn sensitive to anyone telling or trying to help them do something better, where I marshal is in the middle of nowhere and it gets so damn quiet I can hear the players clearly sometimes over 400 yards away and to put it mildly they would just assume I go away than be there to help. One of the problems we run into quite often is we will get people who really have no business teeing it up at this course, I have heard of people losing over a dozen balls in one round and when something like that happens I think it's a little beyond obvious the course is definitely too much.

The poll doesn't address the issue when you are leading the pack with nobody in front of you.  This doesn't only apply to the first group in the morning, but to any group with a number of open tee times ahead of them.  They need to be at least as aware of their pace as any group in the middle of the pack, because they set the tone the entire course behind them.

No it doesn't and that's a good point usually taken for granted, like most other we have a few "rabbit" groups that the course would like to see set the pace of play but this rarely if ever happens, basically I think the mens club morning games say if there is too big of a gap at the end from the first to second then penalty strokes will be added, problem is no one from the rabbit group sticks around long enough to time the next group and no one from behind can see just when they finish.

Rich C.

Driver Titleist 915 D3  9.5*
3 Wood TM RBZ stage 2 tour  14.5*
2 Hybrid Cobra baffler 17*
4Hybrid Adams 23*
Irons Adams CB2's 5-GW
Wedges 54* and 58* Titleist vokey
Putter Scotty Cameron square back 2014
Ball Srixon Zstar optic yellow
bushnell V2 slope edition


Posted

It is no mystery to me why golf is declining in popularity year after year.

Just for the heck of it, I decided to check out my local muni which I used to play quite a bit years ago.

After watching hackers take forever with pre-shot routines, playing charade with "no you go first, you're away" in extremis, and worst of all, this ridiculous standing over putts, marking balls, moving gnat debris, looking at grain and mapping out nuances on greens as if they were in a high stakes match play event (not trying to save a double bogey), I gave up after 9 holes and nearly 2.5 hours later.

If I had to endure this with any regularity, I would quit golf altogether.

IMO, these golf courses MUST to a better job speeding up play, even if it means telling golfers they have to leave the course.

 

TaylorMade RBZ 3-PW

Titleist wedges 

TaylorMade  woods driver


  • Moderator
Posted
It is no mystery to me why golf is declining in popularity year after year.

Just for the heck of it, I decided to check out my local muni which I used to play quite a bit years ago.

After watching hackers take forever with pre-shot routines, playing charade with "no you go first, you're away" in extremis, and worst of all, this ridiculous standing over putts, marking balls, moving gnat debris, looking at grain and mapping out nuances on greens as if they were in a high stakes match play event (not trying to save a double bogey), I gave up after 9 holes and nearly 2.5 hours later.

If I had to endure this with any regularity, I would quit golf altogether.

IMO, these golf courses MUST to a better job speeding up play, even if it means telling golfers they have to leave the course.

This is why I play 9 holes so often now. My natural, feels good pace of play is 3:30 walking. Having to constantly endure 5+ hour 18 hole rounds just suck the life out of me. I don't know how I endured them before smartphones existed.

Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

IMO an enforcement issue that is tough to enforce because many courses simply can't afford to turn anyone away. It's not the only thing that gets ignored. You can pretty much walk on just about any course here and play no matter what you are wearing. Which I honestly don't have a problem with other than I don't think choosing not to enforce some rules sends the wrong message to those that have trouble self policing.

I am adept at getting around slow groups. I will skip them on a hole I usually play par or better when the chance comes if there is space in front of them. If not I kill time until I get to the turn and then I head back to the first tee if the course is open. Planning is a big part I simply avoid peak times. It's not worth the wait. But my experience is usually the course is moving at a decent pace. As bad as slow is I don't care to play with impatient people that feel like it is their right to play as fast as they like even when we are ahead of the POP. I don't want to be out there the entire day or anything but I enjoy my time on the course as much as the actual playing.

Dave :-)

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I put down "right behind the party in front of you", that is, if you have one in front.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

You're gonna have a tough sell there.  I ride virtually 100%, but know plenty of walkers that play quickly.  They might struggle to get around in 2:30, but they can easily keep it under 3:30 without breaking a sweat and generally can keep up with riding partners.....

The common denominator is always the same.  A bit of a sense of urgency and a willingness to just keep moving.....towards your ball.


Maybe you're right, but I'd like to see a walking group make it around my local Bethpage courses in 3:00 without breaking a sweat, sorry, but I doubt it can be done without doing one thing- rushing.

And I don't want a "sense of urgency" on the golf course, I have that at work, I'm there to relax and play golf, and if that means some people behind me quit the game, I say good, less people to wait for next time, I really think this kind of threatening stance of "play faster or I'm going to quit" is super lame.

I play ready golf, I'm ready to hit my ball when it's my turn, I don't stop for lunch, I don't take more than 1-2 practice swings, I walk fast, I keep moving, I don't "Pro" putts, I don't even take more than two putts, I pick up when it's a bad hole... if that's not good enough to play the game then the expectations are unreasonable.


Note: This thread is 4006 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 1: 2025.12.26 Worked on LH position on grip, trying to keep fingers closer to perpendicular to the club. Feels awkward but change is meant to.
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.