"Correct" pace of play

[saevel25]

But regardless ... my point is that this one little action - which is mentioned and then "harrumphed" 1000 times every time we talk about pace of play - has very, very little effect on pace of play.  Remember, if can only happen ONCE in a round (if it happens again then obviously the previous times didn't affect the pace of play one iota).  And even then it only affects pace if the group waiting and the group being waited on continue their rounds at the EXACT same pace.  And even if they do, or say its the 18th hole, it's still a whopping 5 minutes or so.

That's entirely fair.  It's not that particular action that makes them slow, but that action might be a sign that they play slow.

Well not really right?

Lets say you have one par 5 that everyone waits to take their 2nd shot on. If you are waiting 5 minutes, that is 5 minutes per group because the next group is going to do the same thing right? So, that means by the 5th group, they are 25 minutes behind?

Yea, perception takes a bit part in this. Anytime you are waiting extensively, even if you are keeping pace, will make the round seem slower.

[Lihu]

Any gap that is opened because someone is waiting to hit their shot when the cannot reasonably reach the green is likely closed by the next green, if not the tee box.

This is probably true. From what I have observed in the last two months playing daily, that pace of play is mainly determined by the tee shots and putting. Even the "cart waiters" don't take that long if they are playing the appropriate tees. If you hit 300 yards (like Matt), I can see how it can be extremely frustrating waiting for people to make two shots in this manner. Waiting on one shot is not that bad.

[Slice of Life]

No he's not right.

I meant he was right about the person who hits their good drives 215, waiting for a green 300 yards away to clear.

[turtleback]

The Grandmaster is way faster than the casual player, unless the casual player is making random nonsensical moves.

Great analogy, BTW.

When they play seriously grandmasters each have 2.5 hours for 40 moves, which means a game that takes more than 40 moves can take well over 5 hours.  I don't know many casual players that take that long to play a game of chess.  In fact, in tournament play, the stronger the level of the competition the more time is allotted for 40 moves.  So apparently the chess world completely disagrees with the grandmaster analogy.

The choices are 4-1/2 hours or keeping up with the group in front. I want to play at a pace that is comfortable for the day. If I get behind a group of "Rabbits", that are out there just to get 18 holes in under a certain number because they can, then I'm letting them go. I'll play at whatever the PACE of the day might be. Not what SPEED the guys in front are playing.

Sure, but if there is group behind you waiting you hopefully wave them through.  The pace of play when the course is reasonably full and crowded is one aspect of the issue.  The other aspect, though, is when the course is not crowded and we get the golf equivalent of the guy driving at 55 in the left lane holding up traffic because by gosh he is going the speed limit.

Why just a 2-some?  If there's anyone waiting, and there's room in front, they should be allowed through.

There's nothing more frustrating than a group who's holding other players up who won't let them through because to their mind, they're playing at an acceptable pace.  Anyone can play at any pace they like, but faster players should always be allowed through when there's room to do so.

FWIW.....the only thing that bothers me more than waiting on a slow group ahead of me, is being pushed by a faster group behind me.  The last thing I want is to be staring back at them, giving me the stink-eye all day.  I'll get out of their way at the very first chance I have.

This.  It is the guy doing the speed limit in the left lane who will not move over for faster traffic.

[Lihu]

I meant he was right about the person who hits their good drives 215, waiting for a green 300 yards away to clear.

Most people I have partnered with do not do this. For me, a safe margin is about 50 yards.

This is more of a courtesy to the golfers up front. For example, if I am 250 yards from the hole and my hybrid might roll to 225, I still hold back. This is so they do not have to worry about someone hitting into them while they are putting. I feel like it's the same or worse than walking around or making a noise during the putt.

As a general rule, it is better to wait. It does not really cost that much time, if any, to do this small courtesy.

[MS256]

Most people I have partnered with do not do this. For me, a safe margin is about 50 yards.

This is more of a courtesy to the golfers up front. For example, if I am 250 yards from the hole and my hybrid might roll to 225, I still hold back. This is so they do not have to worry about someone hitting into them while they are putting. I feel like it's the same or worse than walking around or making a noise during the putt.

As a general rule, it is better to wait. It does not really cost that much time, if any, to do this small courtesy.

I try not to hit close enough to the green that anybody on the green would notice but I did mess up a couple of months ago on a par 5. My son and I were waiting to hit our second shots. I thought I was on the borderline of my range with a 3W (if I tried to kill it) and there were a couple of bunkers that I didn't want to get in so I told my son I was just going to "lay up".  I thought a nice little baby 5W would land about 50 yards short of the green and take the bunkers out of play.

Something went wrong and the thing exploded in my hands and straight at the green. It landed on the upslope fringe and luckily stuck there. My son asked me "What in the hell kind of layup was that?" I just told him I had no intention at all of doing that. I'm not sure if it disrupted the guys on the green because they were gone but I hope it didn't.

[Golfingdad]

Well not really right?

Lets say you have one par 5 that everyone waits to take their 2nd shot on. If you are waiting 5 minutes, that is 5 minutes per group because the next group is going to do the same thing right? So, that means by the 5th group, they are 25 minutes behind?

Yea, perception takes a bit part in this. Anytime you are waiting extensively, even if you are keeping pace, will make the round seem slower.

What's the difference between a group waiting for a par 5 green to clear 220 yards away and then hitting it 180, and a group waiting for a par 4 green to clear 170 yards away and topping it 70?  The answer:  2 things.  1) The perception that the first scenario is a big cause of slow play, whereas the second scenario is just normal and accepted, and 2) The second scenario probably happens several orders of magnitude more often than the first scenario.

How many times have you waited to reach the green on a par 5 OR a par 4 even, and then not actually reached it?

Now, how many times have you "fallen behind" after doing so?

Lastly, how many times have you "caught back up" after doing so?

I'm going to say that for the majority of decently paced golfers in the world, the answers to those questions are 1) too many to count, 2) by your definition, every time, 3) every time.

@dsc123 already said it best ...

Any gap that is opened because someone is waiting to hit their shot when the cannot reasonably reach the green is likely closed by the next green, if not the tee box.

[MS256]

What's the difference between a group waiting for a par 5 green to clear 220 yards away and then hitting it 180, and a group waiting for a par 4 green to clear 170 yards away and topping it 70?  The answer:  2 things.  1) The perception that the first scenario is a big cause of slow play, whereas the second scenario is just normal and accepted, and 2) The second scenario probably happens several orders of magnitude more often than the first scenario.

How many times have you waited to reach the green on a par 5 OR a par 4 even, and then not actually reached it?

Now, how many times have you "fallen behind" after doing so?

Lastly, how many times have you "caught back up" after doing so?

I'm going to say that for the majority of decently paced golfers in the world, the answers to those questions are 1) too many to count, 2) by your definition, every time, 3) every time.

@dsc123 already said it best ...

I agree. And I think more often than not I don't fall behind at all after waiting and then failing to reach the green. My chances of a fast and successful up and down are much better the closer I am to the green. That alone almost always makes up for the wait.

[jgreen85]

Because we are talking about playing courses that are always somewhat busy.  We don't think that 4.5 hours as the first group out, or late in the day when nobody around, is acceptable, but we tolerate 4.5 hours on full courses because it's common.

Yeah, that happens too. Keep in mind that a 3-some is usually about 20% faster than a 4-some, and some courses are longer than others.

Usually, I play 4-4:30 because I need to wait. If left on my own pace, I tend to rush too much. Mainly, I tend to walk to my ball at a really brisk pace and could be a little out of breath just before taking my second shot. When I need to wait for other golfers moving along at a 4-4:30 pace, I walk slower to my ball because I need to wait for other people to shoot and wait for the green to clear anyway.

I wasn't in the first group out; the course was busy as this was a Sunday morning.

Only way for course to be at 4.5hr pace is if a group is playing at that pace and thinks it is appropriate. It looks like a lot of you do feel it is appropriate, and that is a problem imo.

Again, what is causing people to play at that pace?

I'd like to see starters coach players on proper pace of play: take no more than 8/9 strokes a hole; driver should go to passenger's ball first, drop him off, and then drive to driver's ball while passenger hits. These two items would eliminate the 4.5hr round. Get the pros to quit the b/s on/around the greens and now we're looking at 3:45/round.

[No Mulligans]

I've played with a neighbor that took three mulligans on one hole, they were all OB. At the end of the hole I said, "I got a bogey", he said, "me too". He had maybe 7 mulligans for the round. Mulligans slow the pace of play. So do those lines on the ball that players spend all that extra time trying to line them up perfectly.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

I wasn't in the first group out; the course was busy as this was a Sunday morning.

Only way for course to be at 4.5hr pace is if a group is playing at that pace and thinks it is appropriate. It looks like a lot of you do feel it is appropriate, and that is a problem imo.

Again, what is causing people to play at that pace?

I don't understand what you are talking about here.  You made a general statement about why some people on this forum think that 4.5 hours is acceptable, and that's what I was responding to - not a specific scenario about you playing on a Sunday morning.

The "serious sand trappers" that I know here in Southern California are not slow players, but we often accept 4.5 hours because that is just the nature of the beast.

I really don't like how some serious SandTrap golfers believe 4.5hrs is good. I guess as long as you let faster players through when there's room, but geez....what are yall doing that takes so long?

I played in a 3-some and I walked, and we had to wait on a few holes, yet I was in my truck at the 4hr mark.

[Dave2512]

Honestly on a busy course I doubt I'd notice the difference between 3:50 and 4:30 unless all the time lost was on one or two holes. Spread out over 18 holes it's just a couple minutes per hole. Waiting behind slow golfers only gets annoying when it's obvious something could be done to prevent it and there is open course in front of them. Otherwise it is what it is.

[cubdog]

One of the biggest reasons that contribute to slow play is golfers who have taken the game up as adults. Now I don't want this to sound like I'm some sort of golf snob but most people who learned the game at a young age tend to have a better understanding of the rules and proper course etiquette. Between that and a lack of common sense I see every day on the course can turn a 3:45 round into a 4:30 round. Unfortunately I'm not sure there is a solution to these issues.

cubdog

[mcanadiens]

One of the biggest reasons that contribute to slow play is golfers who have taken the game up as adults. Now I don't want this to sound like I'm some sort of golf snob but most people who learned the game at a young age tend to have a better understanding of the rules and proper course etiquette. Between that and a lack of common sense I see every day on the course can turn a 3:45 round into a 4:30 round. Unfortunately I'm not sure there is a solution to these issues.

cubdog

You are probably right to an extent, but we are learning animals. I started at 35 and had guys who clued me in pretty quickly.

[newtogolf]

I wasn't in the first group out; the course was busy as this was a Sunday morning.

Only way for course to be at 4.5hr pace is if a group is playing at that pace and thinks it is appropriate. It looks like a lot of you do feel it is appropriate, and that is a problem imo.

Again, what is causing people to play at that pace?

I'd like to see starters coach players on proper pace of play: take no more than 8/9 strokes a hole; driver should go to passenger's ball first, drop him off, and then drive to driver's ball while passenger hits. These two items would eliminate the 4.5hr round. Get the pros to quit the b/s on/around the greens and now we're looking at 3:45/round.

I think you're forgetting what it's like to be a high handicapper where taking over 90 shots and 30+ putts isn't uncommon, where time is wasted looking for balls hit off the fairway plus just the time it takes to walk / ride to your ball, etc.

Muni and public courses are loaded with high handicap golfers, guys who are looking to just enjoy the outdoors and have a few drinks and cigars and yes golfers that want to emulate the pro's.  The majority don't seem to care about how long a round takes and if they do, they are the ones that are long gone before the course backs up.

It's like asking who thinks it's appropriate to drive 20 - 30 mph during rush hour.  None of us think it's appropriate but that doesn't change the reality.  So the choice is to deal with it or find another way to spend your 4.5 hours.

[Lihu]

I wasn't in the first group out; the course was busy as this was a Sunday morning.

Only way for course to be at 4.5hr pace is if a group is playing at that pace and thinks it is appropriate. It looks like a lot of you do feel it is appropriate, and that is a problem imo.

Again, what is causing people to play at that pace?

I'd like to see starters coach players on proper pace of play: take no more than 8/9 strokes a hole; driver should go to passenger's ball first, drop him off, and then drive to driver's ball while passenger hits. These two items would eliminate the 4.5hr round. Get the pros to quit the b/s on/around the greens and now we're looking at 3:45/round.

I used to think this, but I actually went up a few holes (a few times) to check out the situation and found it not to be the case. I also have more evidence that it does not appear to be the "one slow party" syndrome in most cases where PoP is 4:30 hours.

Usually, if it is really only one party that is setting this slow pace, it would back up somewhere. In my experience, it has backed up three or four parties before. I would be talking to someone who teed off an hour earlier than me. Usually the marshall will come out and "entice" the slow party to let the backed up ones through.

I don't think it's the "old codger" driving his 1970s vintage Buick at 55 mph on a one lane road holding back traffic because he is "following the law" syndrome in most cases.

When they play seriously grandmasters each have 2.5 hours for 40 moves, which means a game that takes more than 40 moves can take well over 5 hours.  I don't know many casual players that take that long to play a game of chess.  In fact, in tournament play, the stronger the level of the competition the more time is allotted for 40 moves.  So apparently the chess world completely disagrees with the grandmaster analogy.

I should have qualified that with "They beat the casual player really fast".

[Dave2512]

I think you're forgetting what it's like to be a high handicapper where taking over 90 shots and 30+ putts isn't uncommon, where time is wasted looking for balls hit off the fairway plus just the time it takes to walk / ride to your ball, etc.

Muni and public courses are loaded with high handicap golfers, guys who are looking to just enjoy the outdoors and have a few drinks and cigars and yes golfers that want to emulate the pro's.  The majority don't seem to care about how long a round takes and if they do, they are the ones that are long gone before the course backs up.

It's like asking who thinks it's appropriate to drive 20 - 30 mph during rush hour.  None of us think it's appropriate but that doesn't change the reality.  So the choice is to deal with it or find another way to spend your 4.5 hours.

Which is why I always mention I think a big contributor to slow play is high handicap golfers playing too far back. It's not they can't hit it far here and there just that the ratio of mishits to well struck balls isn't in their favor. If guys people played tees relative to their skill their mishits would be closer to the green increasing the chance to score better and avoid trouble more often.

[newtogolf]

Which is why I always mention I think a big contributor to slow play is high handicap golfers playing too far back. It's not they can't hit it far here and there just that the ratio of mishits to well struck balls isn't in their favor. If guys people played tees relative to their skill their mishits would be closer to the green increasing the chance to score better and avoid trouble more often.

I don't disagree and I have nothing against four hour or shorter rounds if it's a comfortable pace for everyone.  As I've stated, my private club expects a 4-some to finish in 4 hours.  Our starter records the start and end times of everyones round and if a 4-some takes more than 4:15 they will be warned about slow play and can eventually be suspended for 2 weeks, but this is at a private club where everyone agrees to these rules when they join.   Members play the right tees for their game because if they play from longer tees they risk going over the 4 hour limit.   We also don't allow members on the course unless they have an established handicap or they are certified by the Club Pro.

Public / muni courses don't have such rules or methods to enforce them so it's up to each individual to maintain pace of play and most either are ignorant to pace of play issues or just don't care.