The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[Dave2512]

The intervals are fine. The problems start when group get out of position, usually looking for errant shots. It wouldn't matter if they spaced groups out at 15 minutes someone will take twenty minutes to finish a hole that should take 12 minutes and make no effort to catch up.

I see it all the time. Couple weeks ago I played after work and it's getting tough to finish with sunset in the 7:20 range and losing two minutes each day. I caught two foursomes on the 16th and 17th holes at 6:45, at 7:15 I was still standing in 17 fairway. People fall behind and have no sense of urgency to make up time in consideration of others out there. The biggest pace problems are entitlement attitudes and lack of enforcement.

[flopster]

The intervals are fine. The problems start when group get out of position, usually looking for errant shots. It wouldn't matter if they spaced groups out at 15 minutes someone will take twenty minutes to finish a hole that should take 12 minutes and make no effort to catch up.

I see it all the time. Couple weeks ago I played after work and it's getting tough to finish with sunset in the 7:20 range and losing two minutes each day. I caught two foursomes on the 16th and 17th holes at 6:45, at 7:15 I was still standing in 17 fairway. People fall behind and have no sense of urgency to make up time in consideration of others out there. The biggest pace problems are entitlement attitudes and lack of enforcement.

Bingo!!! Nothing infuriates me more than seeing newbs teeing up multiple balls when the first ones in play, I don't buy the total ignorance excuse at all anymore people are making a clear choice to do as they please regardless of how much others are inconvenienced.

[Jeremie Boop]

I ask myself "what's the rush" all the time but for a totally different reason. In my league there are a few teams who want to get out there and get their 9 holes done and leave as quickly as possible. It's not about them not having to wait, it's about them being able to finish and leave as quickly as possible. Even if they are the first tee time of the night they try to get whomever their opponents may be to get there early so they can tee off sooner. To me it makes it seem like they don't even want to be there.

However, more inline with the question of the OP. I'm not rushing when I play, I play as a single a majority of the time, and typically with a cart. As such it takes me very little time to play a hole. I don't typically mind waiting a bit, knowing that as a single I'm going to finish holes quicker by default, but as @Lihu said, if I see the people in front me not playing ready golf it tends to annoy me.

[DrvFrShow]

@Jeremie Boop that's the same feeling I get with my league. They reserve the first tee time for "those who have appointments and who have to leave" - i.e. the speed golfers who want to squeeze 18 in their busy day. And then they start BMCing about how no one can stay on pace with them. "We're not supposed to have an open hole in front." The first foursome is one of low single digit handicappers in carts and they blaze through the course so they can go play tennis in the afternoon.

Here's some problems that cause pace of play issues I've seen on public goat tracks:

1) a par 3 on the second hole. Par 3s are log jams. But it's too late to change that now.

2) tree branches overhanging fairways narrowing approach shots, if you hit a shot on that side of the fairway you're punished for it and end up having to chip out. It's a wasted shot and wasted time. So the solution is to cut off that fork in the tree making the approach to the green more open.

3) fairway bunkers. Do we really need them on your local public goat track? Most people have trouble getting out of a greenside bunker so when they land in one of these it slows down the pace of play. And for god's sake don't plant a tree in front of the escape route. Leave fairway bunkers for the real championship courses.

4) woods - While parkland courses are pretty, thick woods are not. Taking a bulldozer and carving a route through a forest and planting grass does not make it a golf course. Hit a $4 ball into the woods and it really slows down play. I know the solution is not to hit your ball into the woods. Most people who play are 90s+ golfers and hit their balls into the woods, and a lot of them play with ProV1s because.... marketing. So to minimize the amount of time people spend looking for their golf balls, thin out the trees and clear the underbrush. Golfers will be happier, pace of play will improve, and you can still have your parkland course. You won't have to, out of laziness, put in a local rule that states: balls hit into woods drop two club lengths +1 stroke at point of entry. This does not stop people from looking for their $4 golf ball.

5) Add a set of tees - 5200 yds is too short for a lot of people, and 6200 yds is too long for a lot of people. So add a set at 5600-5700 yds. Put the red tee at the very back (6800 - 7500); purple tee at the front; blues at 5600; white at 6200; and gold at 6600. Get rid of the "ladies" and "men's" designation. A lot of better women players and seniors will play 5600. It doesn't even have to be done with an additional tee box. It can be done on the scorecard - a "gold" course. Most scorecards are printed in color, so print an oval marking the gold course as a combination of what is now the "red" and "white" tees and print the yardages over that so that this course comes out to 5600 - 5700 yds. It can be done.

[Dave2512]

People want to get out early in league because it's typically a death march. I can't play in ours anymore because of earlier sunset. I played late after work and average time for 9 holes in the 2:45 range. With only league out there it moves very slow. Mostly because those that get into trouble have to do whatever it takes to finish the hole within the rules instead of being more casual about it. They should put a sign on every tee when in doubt hit a provisional.

[Jeremie Boop]

People want to get out early in league because it's typically a death march. I can't play in ours anymore because of earlier sunset. I played late after work and average time for 9 holes in the 2:45 range. With only league out there it moves very slow. Mostly because those that get into trouble have to do whatever it takes to finish the hole within the rules instead of being more casual about it. They should put a sign on every tee when in doubt hit a provisional.

I would agree with this, mostly, however my league doesn't follow the rules too closely. It allows drops with 1 stroke for OB or lost balls and other things of that nature. These guys I'm talking about show up way early, usually they'll play whatever side of the course we are designated to play that day once before they play their opponents, then they hightail it out of there like they have million dollar meeting when all they are really doing is going up to the bar to drink. For me, even a slow night at the course playing golf is better than sitting at home or in a bar. Everyone has different priorities and preferences of course.

On a side note, it really bugs the crap out of me that they'll play the side they are playing for league ahead of time. I know it shouldn't/doesn't make much/any difference because we play the course every week, but I think it goes back to how there was always a rule that in bowling that you couldn't play practice games on the same lanes you were scheduled to bowl on that day/night in league.

[Dave2512]

Poorly managed league for sure. On league day only league play the side assigned to league, no casual rounds permitted. Because the course can't cater just to league guys and our league is sizable they ask that league guys wanting to play the other side not do so until after 1:30.

[DrvFrShow]

That's absurd. My league follows rules and we finish on a 3:30 pace. These women play fast. Of course no one loses a ball and if one does it's usually in the water.

[Aflighter]

Ive experienced both with speed demons and slow pokes.Some guys want to try and play in under 3 hrs as 3sum or 4sum to the point that I question why are they even out here.Also been out there with guys who have no clue they are slow.Me and my buddy played other day at exactly 3 hrs.We both shot 80 and didnt rush and took our time.The best part was the only people we saw were almost done or atleast 7-8 holes ahead so we didnt have to wait at all.Nothing better than having the golf course all to yourself.

[RGoosen]

Ive experienced both with speed demons and slow pokes.Some guys want to try and play in under 3 hrs as 3sum or 4sum to the point that I question why are they even out here.Also been out there with guys who have no clue they are slow.Me and my buddy played other day at exactly 3 hrs.We both shot 80 and didnt rush and took our time.The best part was the only people we saw were almost done or atleast 7-8 holes ahead so we didnt have to wait at all.Nothing better than having the golf course all to yourself.

Played 2 rounds of golf today on the RTJ Golf trail today: My friend and I paired up with a couple for our 1st round (3 solid golfers single digit HC's and the guys wife was new to the game having played for one year). We played on a crowded course in 3:50 minutes. Very enjoyable and no one rushed or farted around when it was their turn. 2nd Round of the day my friend and I played another course on the trail. It was 90 degrees and pretty empty. We finished in 2:10 minutes. Neither of us rushed or farted around. We played ready golf and it took us that long to play b/c we were hitting the ball fine and we did concern ourselves with looking a couple of errant tee shots. Both rounds were equally enjoyable b/c we rarely had to wait to hit a shot (close to 4 hour round and the 2hr10min round equally enjoyable). I think the misconception is that people that are able to play ready golf without dilly dallying are all rushing. I go the golf course to play golf not to socialize. If I socialize on the course I am doing something else at the same time such as moving b/w shots. I do most of my socializing after the round over lunch or at the clubhouse. I hate holding others up as much as I do waiting on a group on front of me. If I get stuck paired up with a slow group I will try to get the group to let others pass or hint that maybe we should pick up the pace.

[colin007]

I think the misconception is that people that are able to play ready golf without dilly dallying are all rushing.

I agree one billion percent. Ready golf DOES NOT MEAN rushing. It means walk to your ball and hit the damn thing. Talk while you're walking to your balls. If your partners are on the other side if the fairway, then that's not a hole for talking. Go to your ball, hit it, or GTFO.

[DrvFrShow]

Ready golf means

while your playing partners are going through their routines and hitting

1. Survey the landing zone for trouble

2. Take your distance measurement

3. Select your club

4. Take your practice swings if any (unless you're right next to your playing partner who is hitting)

5. When it's your turn all you have to do is line up your shot, step in and swing. I'll cut you slack on one more practice swing if your a senior and need to loosen a hitch in your back.

6. If your ready before anyone else, take your shot.

Note: match play does not use ready golf, because if you do not have honor on the tee, I can make you rehit.

[Dave2512]

Ready golf or not has a minimal impact on pace. The slow people I see can't play ready golf because the a) don't hit the ball well and b) they chase and hunt for balls all day. It takes them an absurd amount of time to finish a hole because they are always in trouble. I've played behind guys that would drive Furyk nuts. I mean walkers that you could crawl faster than that stand over putts for what seems like minutes and they are still faster than the ball chasers.

This happened to me last night. Left work early to try and squeeze in 18, got to the course at 4:25, sunset was 7:17 so it shouldn't be a problem. By the time these a-holes at concessions wasted 5 minutes asking the poor attendant for every silly request known to man a threesome that was at the range got to the first tee before me. I figured no problem I will pass them on two. Everybody in the group hit a crap drive and that started the hunting and waiting. By then it was 4:31 and I was starting to worry knowing it would take a bit to get to hole 2. It took them until 4:49 to finish the hole. Just stupid, silly golf that was miserable to watch. I actually hit a lay up shot instead of going for the green to let them know I wasn't out there to mess around because they were dallying around the green, and because it was windy and I would have had to hit a risky shot over water wind blowing hard (20 mph) towards the pond.

By the time I finished hole 1 it was nearly 5 so all in all I was on one hole almost a half hour. They hit more shit drives on two and the hunting started again. I drove around them skipping the hole to boogie on 3. I played 4-5-6 and saw them just finishing on 3. I managed to fly through the front and most of the back before catching the jackwads I saw at the concession counter. They started on the back. So in the time it took me to play 12 holes the had played just 4 as a threesome. No joke I hit my drive on 14 and waited behind them as they chipped, putted and did whatever for 6 minutes and they were already up there before I got to the tee.

None of them seemed to be in a hurry and were seemingly oblivious to how slow they really were. The crazy thing was the second slow group waved my up to play through. As slow as they were the second I left my spot in front of them their balls were in the air, it was a par 3 and I saw two balls bounce into junk because the next tee is so close you don't have to move the cart between holes. As I was heading down 18 fairway they still hadn't made finished that hole. These are the people I see dragging the pace to a halt. They can't play ready golf because the don't know where the dang ball is 3/4 of the time.

[djfajt71]

Or the person that gets dropped off at his ball, only grabs one club and, after the other guy has already driven away, changes his mind and walks to the driver of the cart to get a different club rather than grabbing a few clubs when he got dropped off.

Or, as I am one of the guys that only takes 1 club, learn how to adjust your shot and hit it with the club you grabbed.  Not only will you keep the flow going, but you may also find a new shot you never realized you possessed.

[mcanadiens]

Or, as I am one of the guys that only takes 1 club, learn how to adjust your shot and hit it with the club you grabbed.  Not only will you keep the flow going, but you may also find a new shot you never realized you possessed.

In my young and dumb days (which was only a few years ago), I remember grabbing only one club, mishitting it and then trying to do that. Some ugly holes to be sure, but I kept moving. I disagree to some extent with an above post. Yeah, beginners will always be slower that experienced golfers, but most of the damage comes from not playing ready golf. When my lot were starting out, we had one experienced guy show us the way. Get to the ball, play the ball. No ball search longer than two minutes. We sucked, but we kept moving.

[ghalfaire]

I did not read all the posts but there have been many "pace of play" threads so I suspect I know most of the arguments. But I'll take the opportunity to make mine again.  I think the problem is course crowding.  Just like trying to get down a freeway during rush hour.  If you believe that something like 3.5 to 4.0 hours is a "reasonable" amount of time for a round that comes out something between a little over 11 minutes to a little over 13 minutes a hole for the group.  So how many course do you know that schedule tee times considering that interval?  Not many I know.  Since I play some golf I know there are sometimes groups that seem to think 5 hours for a round is OK and that can sure slow down the pace.  But I believe the real problem is the course management doesn't schedule for 3.5 or 4.0 hours for a round. 7 Minutes between tee times is a 2.1 hour round.   Most foursome can't do that.  So the math is simple and I rest my case.

[DrvFrShow]

I think the pace of play could really benefit with beginners playing the longest club they can control on the course. If this is your 7 iron, play from the forward tees, and tee off with it. Play it down the fairway, then hit your wedge onto the green of your par 4. You'll probably make a bogey if you can two putt. You'll keep the ball on the fairway and have more fun with your round instead of spending all your time hunting for the ball in the woods. Granted it's not as "fun" as hitting your driver off the tee, and doesn't feel as macho. But you'll finish your round faster and not hold up play on the course. Imagine if you card a 90 or 92? You can tell your friends. And if you par the par 3s you can even break 90!

But I'll admit, bombing drivers is fun. Bombing them in the fairway is really fun. Even for a girl.

Then as you get better you can step back a set of tees and go to your hybrid. Then later to your 3W. Then finally to your driver.

[krupa]

I did not read all the posts but there have been many "pace of play" threads so I suspect I know most of the arguments. But I'll take the opportunity to make mine again.  I think the problem is course crowding.  Just like trying to get down a freeway during rush hour.  If you believe that something like 3.5 to 4.0 hours is a "reasonable" amount of time for a round that comes out something between a little over 11 minutes to a little over 13 minutes a hole for the group.  So how many course do you know that schedule tee times considering that interval?  Not many I know.  Since I play some golf I know there are sometimes groups that seem to think 5 hours for a round is OK and that can sure slow down the pace.  But I believe the real problem is the course management doesn't schedule for 3.5 or 4.0 hours for a round. 7 Minutes between tee times is a 2.1 hour round.   Most foursome can't do that.  So the math is simple and I rest my case.

It's certainly a factor but without someone enforcing the 11-13 minutes per hole you're going to have slow-downs regardless of how well you space each group.

Case in point:  A couple weeks ago I went out by myself right after a tournament and the course was empty... or so I thought.  As I was heading down the 3rd fairway a twosome was teeing off on 12 (a short par 3).  I caught up to them on hole 16.  They took about 3 hours to play 9 holes of golf.  I played 18 in 2-2.5.  I may have even made it under two but this twosome is also really good and not giving a shit about the people waiting behind them.  So the last 2 holes was me sitting around a lot.

Here are things I see alot:  people interrupt their golfing to talk, they will stand around on a green because the guy who is raking the bunker is still farthest from the hole, they will stalk a putt as if they're about to win the US Open, they drive to one ball watch the guy hit it after careful deliberation then drive to the next ball.  They will stop the cart girl on the 9th fairway to buy drinks when the path from 9 to 10 takes them right past the clubhouse bar.  They will park the cart near the green, grab a wedge, walk back to their ball, hit it, walk back to the cart, get a putter, walk back to the green....