2016 Waste Management Phoenix Open Discussion

[mvmac]

8 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

 He has that weird follow through where they let go of the club and he looks dejected.

I've seen him do that in other tournaments as well.

I'm also not a fan of that pause at the top of his backswing 

[Marty2019]

8 hours ago, mvmac said:

I've seen him do that in other tournaments as well.

I'm also not a fan of that pause at the top of his backswing 

That's the part of his swing I really like.  It's kind of elegant. 

[Dave2512]

Historically he's hit it in the hazard around 9 times on 17. I don't care how well someone is driving the ball or how hard and fast the course sets up. Two shot lead with two to play is use your head territory make the chasers catch you don't give it away. That was an expensive choice. 

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

Historically he's hit it in the hazard around 9 times on 17. I don't care how well someone is driving the ball or how hard and fast the course sets up. Two shot lead with two to play is use your head territory make the chasers catch you don't give it away. That was an expensive choice. 

It's his Achilles heel, I guess?

I will concede that Rickie is a professional and at a very minimum his caddie probably should have had that stat in the back of his mind and alerted Rickie. However, he really did not expect to hit a 360 yard drive.

Also, armchair analysis of a golfer is much easier than being at the tee box. Hind sight is always 20/20. I'm sure if we did a similar analysis of our own GG rounds, we would probably slap our own foreheads saying WTF did I do that?

[Golfingdad]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

However, he really did not expect to hit a 360 yard drive.

Also, armchair analysis of a golfer is much easier than being at the tee box. Hind sight is always 20/20. I'm sure if we did a similar analysis of our own GG rounds, we would probably slap our own foreheads saying WTF did I do that?

Exactly.  People are suggesting that Rickie was being risky or too aggressive by choosing driver, when, if you read the exchange in that article, really all they were being was pragmatic. They made what they thought was the best decision at the time.  They shouldn't be faulted for that.  Like you said, why would/should they have expected an 80 yard rollout on that one particular drive?  I watched several drives and fairway woods all week on that hole and got excited when I saw them land several yards short of the green, thinking that they'd roll up onto the green.  Very few of them did.  Most of them went nowhere.

By all means, criticize Rickie if you want for losing a tournament he should have won, but place it where it belongs.  On the piss-poor fairway wood in the playoff, or even the missed par putt after that.  (Or perhaps any number of other shots he screwed up in regulation that I didn't see)

Or better yet, commend Matsuyama for several clutch shots of his own in WINNING that tournament - specifically his birdies on 18 at the end.  He earned that trophy.

[iacas]

I think Rickie made the wrong play. There's water left and long.

I think the play was to hit a long iron to about 200 yards, then face a pedestrian 115-yard wedge shot to a huge target.

Were he tied or down, getting near the green was important. But he simply had to make par.

Now, yes, he got unlucky, but he also could have pulled or hooked his driver, and finding the water then would not have been unlucky.

P.S. I don't know how different the hole is from this graphic. If they added a ton of bunkers, then that's another thing entirely. But if he had a 200-yard and then a 115-yard shot or anything close to that… I think he would have been better served going that route.

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

It's his Achilles heel, I guess?

I will concede that Rickie is a professional and at a very minimum his caddie probably should have had that stat in the back of his mind and alerted Rickie. However, he really did not expect to hit a 360 yard drive.

Also, armchair analysis of a golfer is much easier than being at the tee box. Hind sight is always 20/20. I'm sure if we did a similar analysis of our own GG rounds, we would probably slap our own foreheads saying WTF did I do that?

Armchair analysis of all sports is much easier than being in the moment.  In Rickie's case, he could have made a great shot and won the match but as Erik stated, the risk outweighed the reward.  With adrenaline pumping and the crowds going nuts he didn't need to make the shot any tougher than it already was.

[Golfingdad]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think Rickie made the wrong play. There's water left and long.

I think the play was to hit a long iron to about 200 yards, then face a pedestrian 115-yard wedge shot to a huge target.

Were he tied or down, getting near the green was important. But he simply had to make par.

Now, yes, he got unlucky, but he also could have pulled or hooked his driver, and finding the water then would not have been unlucky.

Considering your position on Van De Velde, I'm kind of surprised by this.

I think that it's just too much Monday Morning Caddying, and too little emphasis given to how unlucky the bounce was.  If the ball landed softly like every other drive on that course**, he made birdie or an easy par and then won, and then somebody came on here this week and said "Sure he won, but I think that he made a really dumb mistake hitting driver on 17 because he could have found a small downhill spot and it could have scurried over the green and into the water, and then he might have blown the tournament in a playoff by clubbing down to a fairway wood and hooking it into the water," that person would be scoffed at and mostly ignored.

** Full Disclosure:  I didn't get to watch that much of the tournament.  I'm basing this part of my opinion on the article I linked above and the few driver shots I did see on that hole and a few others throughout the week.  Those that I did see, besides this one, all landed softly with little roll.

[freshmanUTA]

On February 8, 2016 at 0:11 PM, Lihu said:

We missed the kickoff for the Broncos/Panther game because we wanted to finish watching the open.

Didn't miss much.

[Coronagolfman]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Considering your position on Van De Velde, I'm kind of surprised by this.

I think that it's just too much Monday Morning Caddying, and too little emphasis given to how unlucky the bounce was.  If the ball landed softly like every other drive on that course**, he made birdie or an easy par and then won, and then somebody came on here this week and said "Sure he won, but I think that he made a really dumb mistake hitting driver on 17 because he could have found a small downhill spot and it could have scurried over the green and into the water, and then he might have blown the tournament in a playoff by clubbing down to a fairway wood and hooking it into the water," that person would be scoffed at and mostly ignored.

** Full Disclosure:  I didn't get to watch that much of the tournament.  I'm basing this part of my opinion on the article I linked above and the few driver shots I did see on that hole and a few others throughout the week.  Those that I did see, besides this one, all landed softly with little roll.

Ricky was already the benefactor of a huge break on 18 in the playoff already - drove it in the "Church Pews" bunker (ridiculous design addition in my opinion) and was lucky enough to have the ball skip out into the fairway.

But for guys who don't need the money a win is more important than anything else so why not have a go?  In September nobody is going to remember the Phoenix Open playoff loser ............ for that matter, maybe even the winner.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Coronagolfman

[MacDutch]

Think Rickie had really bad luck on his phenomenal drive on 16. But why not laying up? That would have been the smart thing to do. Could have made birdie that way also.

But I like Rickie for the way he played 16. Awesome golf and play off. We wouldn't have seen that if he had played 16 the smart and dull way.

[pumaAttack]

56 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

Didn't miss much.

VON MILLER!

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, Coronagolfman said:

Ricky was already the benefactor of a huge break on 18 in the playoff already - drove it in the "Church Pews" bunker (ridiculous design addition in my opinion) and was lucky enough to have the ball skip out into the fairway.

But for guys who don't need the money a win is more important than anything else so why not have a go?  In September nobody is going to remember the Phoenix Open playoff loser ............ for that matter, maybe even the winner.

Not that it matters much, but that was on the 72nd hole, not the playoff.  I also wouldn't call it a "huge" break considering that these guys don't really have much trouble hitting 120 yard fairway bunker shots.

However, since you bring that up, it does bring up another fair point:  Everybody saying that he should have laid up on 17 and walked away with his par is also assuming that it's a foregone conclusion that he plays 18 the exact same way as he did.  Remember ... he birdied that hole to force the playoff AFTER Matsuyama birdied it.  If we're being honest with ourselves while we're dissecting this, then we also have to consider that it's entirely plausible that he makes a different decision (off the tee or on the approach) on 18 while nursing a one-stroke lead.  Maybe he just really wants to hit the fairway, or is extra conservative and goes long on the approach to be certain he doesn't come up short.  Who knows?

However, what I do know is this:  If he does lay up on 17 and he pars out and he loses the playoff, the number of people criticizing him for being a coward on 17 is not going to be zero.  More importantly, the ven diagram of the groups of people criticizing him for actuall hitting driver and hypothetically laying up would have some overlap.

(Not speaking of ANYBODY in particular here, just talking generally)

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Considering your position on Van De Velde, I'm kind of surprised by this.

Van de Velde had more shots to play with.

5 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I think that it's just too much Monday Morning Caddying, and too little emphasis given to how unlucky the bounce was.

His Shot Zone likely included the water short and left, too, though. I could say it was lucky that he avoided that water.

I don't think it was a big mistake.

[Dave2512]

7 hours ago, Lihu said:

It's his Achilles heel, I guess?

I will concede that Rickie is a professional and at a very minimum his caddie probably should have had that stat in the back of his mind and alerted Rickie. However, he really did not expect to hit a 360 yard drive.

Also, armchair analysis of a golfer is much easier than being at the tee box. Hind sight is always 20/20. I'm sure if we did a similar analysis of our own GG rounds, we would probably slap our own foreheads saying WTF did I do that?

No kidding I was questioning it as it happened, before he hit the shot.