ClusterF&#? Rules Today at USKG

[Lihu]

Brings back terrible memories for some of us. Unfortunately, there are plenty of Janes in the world. Not just in golf. At least Natalie will be learning to play by the rules.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Unfortunately, there are plenty of Janes in the world.

Nothing unfortunate about that at all ... The unfortunate thing is the "Janes dads" out there, of which there are far too many.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

Nothing unfortunate about that at all ... The unfortunate thing is the "Janes dads" out there, of which there are far too many.

Yeah, so true.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

Nothing unfortunate about that at all ... The unfortunate thing is the "Janes dads" out there, of which there are far too many.

Right. We had no problem with Jane (though she should know where to stand, walk, etc. when on the putting green, in particular. But she was likely never taught.)

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Right. We had no problem with Jane (though she should know where to stand, walk, etc. when on the putting green, in particular. But she was likely never taught.)

If dad isn't teaching her the rules, he's likely not teaching her proper golf etiquette either.  

[No Mulligans]

@iacas, I think you handled it well.  Imo, if you escalated the situation it would have just been worse for everyone involved, you and all the youngsters included.  The big picture is you got out of a bad situation with the minimum amount of damage.

[MacDutch]

Hmm, this is the rules forum yes? From a rules perspective, you and the other father waved a rule in favor of Jane. Thats a dq for both. Not sure how this works, because you and the other father were no competitors.

How about that fifth prize Jane won? Was she dead last, or was there a girl sixth?

From a more social standpoint: they did not play by the rules because they did not know the rules (or etiquette). So I would try to be nice, understanding and helpfull. But sometimes I'm not strong enough, get annoyed and I become a big jerk to those ignorent p|gs.

Could you have done better? You did not by your standards, and not by their standards. No win situation.

 

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

Hmm, this is the rules forum yes? From a rules perspective, you and the other father waved a rule in favor of Jane. Thats a dq for both. Not sure how this works, because you and the other father were no competitors.

I didn't waive a rule, and as you noted I'm not the competitor. What Natalie and "Jane" did is between them. :)

I haven't thought about it much because of how it shook out, but basically I think it would have been a 9, really: 1 stroke for the stroke and distance off the tee, and 15-2 would yield two strokes for a ball incorrectly substituted. She didn't gain a significant advantage in playing from where she did.

Essentially, I gave them the benefit of the doubt in that the cliff could be called a water hazard (it was by the tee, and the small creek at the bottom likely continued all the way alongside the hole), and that they had virtual certainty that the ball was in the hazard. So that would make their drop legitimate, and Jane would get an 8.

That's why I said "by the most liberal application of the rules, she got at least an 8."

30 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

How about that fifth prize Jane won? Was she dead last, or was there a girl sixth?

DFL. 8, 9, or the max 10 wouldn't have changed a thing.

30 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

From a more social standpoint: they did not play by the rules because they did not know the rules (or etiquette). So I would try to be nice, understanding and helpfull. But sometimes I'm not strong enough, get annoyed and I become a big jerk to those ignorent p|gs.

I chose to ignore the guy. He didn't want any help. That was made clear after I told him he had five minutes to look for a golf ball.

30 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

Could you have done better? You did not by your standards, and not by their standards. No win situation.

I don't know what you know about my standards…?

[iacas]

The saga, sadly, continues.

Monday, Jane had her grandfather caddying for her. On the first tee, the tour director had to remind the grandpa not to stand on her line while she played her tee shot from the tee box on the first hole. On the second green, after he'd stood behind her on every shot except her first, I reminded him of this with a casual "Hey, you can't stand on her line while she plays. Just step out at the last second if you want to help line her up." and he said "Oh yes, that's right, I have to step aside. But this isn't the PGA…" Ooooookay.

(Also, I didn't know at the time about the first tee thing. I mostly just pay attention to my kid, particularly on the first tee as she is often a little nervous.)

So on the third hole, there was a bit of GUR (marked, though, with orange flags… but clearly what was intended to be GUR). Jane's ball was in the fairway or fringe about four feet from the GUR area (just longer uncut grass, new grass they were trying to grow I guess) and the hole was on the green, with the GUR between.

The grandpa said "we need to find the nearest point." I had an idea so I walked past (on my way to help my kid anyway) and he said "we're taking relief." I said "for what?" He said "for this ground under repair." I said "well, you can't. It's not on the putting green, and it's not affecting her lie, stance, or area of swing." He said "but she wants to putt, so she's going to have to play through it." I said "okay, but none of those conditions are true, so… she can't take relief." He said "She wants to putt." I said "I understand that, but you don't get relief because GUR is on the line you want to play. She could chip or play over it or to the side." (Though to the side would make no sense, really… I just didn't want to give anything you might take as advice and was just trying to point out the options, while being a bit more casual about it too.) He grumbled something and she putted and barely got through the long grass. Natalie beat Jane by 15.

Jane, btw, routinely stands behind her ball marker on the putting green even if she's only four feet from the hole and people are putting past her. She does a number of other weird things, like putting from 20 feet away while Natalie was finishing out a tap-in after a par putt… just aloof and unaware of her surroundings type of things. We ask her to move when she's in the way, but otherwise, ignore her really.

So anyway, today, Natalie was playing the Tour Championship. Jane's mom was caddying, with her dad (from the OP) walking along. On the second hole, the mom loudly says to us as we're walking up the fairway "There's still one more to play!" because a girl was in the right rough playing up. She'd have had to hit the ball past her left ankle to hit us, and we were 50 yards away, but okay… whatever. We stopped.

Then on the third hole Natalie made a 5 and her marker asked her what she got. Natalie said "5" and then the next thing I knew Jane's mom was coming back down the hill like a charging rhino pointing her finger and saying "She made six. Drive, second shot, third shot, chip (there was no chip), and two putts. THAT'S A SIX!" I didn't even know what was happening, but Natalie said something like "I didn't chip." Then started crying because some woman was yelling at her. Her marker said "I know you got a five. I got it. Don't worry about it." The husband and I said something like "she had a 5" at about the same time. The woman stormed off up the hill to the next tee. My daughter was still crying as she thinned her tee shot on the par three fourth, and was still really shaken and upset, and I turned around and said "You know, I feel like you owe my daughter an apology."

This set the mom off.

She said "Ha! You've been rude to my daughter all year with these penalties and making rude comments. I don't care if you're a golf pro, you're full of it and these girls are just trying to play and enjoy golf." I asked "What are you talking about? What rude comments? Huh?" She said "I will not stoop to your level. I will not get into it here. If you want to take five minutes to hash it out fine, my husband is right over there. Talk to him. You've been rude all year with these penalties and it doesn't matter what caddy we have for Jane, you are just out to ruin everything." At this point Natalie was bawling even more and she said "I do apologize to you but your husband, errr, dad should shut his mouth and stop making rude comments about Jane and just let them play." To which Natalie says "He has never said anything?! What did he ever say?" (Answer: nothing. We don't talk about Jane, really, except to say "nice shot" or "good par" or "good speed" or whatever you say when playing golf… or occasionally, to Jane, "Hey Jane, could you move over a bit while Natalie putts?" or something like that, as well as the two or three rulings she's had to get all year… none of which indicated they knew anything about the Rules of Golf.)

The woman said "well, we're sick of it, and you can talk to my husband if you don't know."

Apparently the folks in the group behind heard her yelling at us. Natalie's marker came over and said "sorry, I don't know what that was about, you had a five." Even Jane seemed completely unaware of whatever she was talking about.

The rest of the round Jane's mom and dad would glare at us any time Natalie and I put our heads together and talked about things. Just as we always do… we're talking about her swing, where to aim her next shot, or things that have to do only with Natalie's game, or her friends, or whatever. We don't worry about Jane. But I think now they think maybe we were talking about them those times, and every time. As if we really care about Jane. We've drummed into Natalie that she can only ever worry about her game. And I enforce that by only ever worrying about her game, too.

If I had thought of it (frankly, I was so caught off guard I wasn't thinking of much of anything besides "huh?"), I might have said something like "talk to your husband? He didn't say anything the first time. She probably should have had a 10 or something, and it's not my problem that you don't know the rules of golf."

This whole thing, with a few hours of hindsight, feels like they hated us from the moment of that ruling and took everything after that in the worst possible way. "Look at those two over there talking about us." "Look at that dick giving us another shitty ruling." Etc. And it just builds and builds and builds, until you end up with a mom yelling at my kid and making her cry. WTF?

Oh, and Natalie played a shot today off what clearly should have been GUR, but which was unmarked, so she played it as it lie (a bit dirt area before a cart path), and did what she could with it. Because we follow the Rules of Golf.

Last thing: the Rules of Golf exist for a reason. Don't fucking enter a golf tournament and then expect people to just make shit up as they go. GUR between your ball and the hole through the green? SUUUUUUUUURE, take all the relief you want! Lost ball? SUUUUUUURE, just drop where you think you lost it without any penalty at all. And take ten minutes to look for it if you want, too! Why not? They're just kids, right?

No. They're nearly high school age girls who are playing competitive golf and who will, most likely, play for their high schools, etc. So I'm sorry if you don't know the rules, but perhaps learn them. They're not that hard. You don't get to drop where you think you lost your ball, you get five minutes to find them, you don't get relief just because you think you should, and you don't get to yell at my kid (particularly when you're wrong about it).

Grrrrr.

And cleansing breath, and, done.

P.S. The rest of the round went by without much incident. We continued to be nice to Jane. She talked with us a few times, and seemed completely unaware of anything going on. Natalie beat her again (the wide open course made it closer than at other courses where you can't hit your ball 80 yards right and be fine). On the ninth she hit her ball into the woods and asked her mom if she should hit a provisional, and her mom said "no let's go up there and see what we find." Uhhhh, okay. My wife pointed out where her ball was, 50 yards from where they were looking and with a clear chip to the green. Because we're not interested in punishing Jane.

On the 18th hole Jane hit it into the mulched area around the clubhouse. I avoided going near them lest they think I was trying to watch her closely or something. The mom/dad were saying "let's go get the tournament director for a ruling" but she just played out of it, took two to chip on, and three-putted for a 7. Before her second putt her mom said "Maybe she should play a second ball." I thought to myself "too late. She already played the shot and didn't announce her intentions…" but just smiled to myself, almost hoping they'd try that, because I knew by then that Natalie had beaten her regardless, and that the Rules were on my side again…

The "husband" didn't say anything to me after the round. I kinda hoped he would, so I could get the rules book and point out whatever he wanted to see, but it's better that he didn't.

But like I said, relatively stress-free after the fourth and fifth holes and the crying stopped.

[Shindig]

I didn't play youth golf, so I don't know if this is an unreasonable question, but is it possible to get a neutral observer on these rounds?  Or maybe bring along someone they don't know who can float as an observer of several groups and intervene?

[jkelley9]

I imagine that must be frustrating for you, and Natalie. Their actions have certainly affected Natalie's game, I'm sure. And that's not fair to either of you. Although Natalie is learning some good lessons about having to deal with peoples' craziness lol.

This is tricky because of the fact that you can't "let" them break a rule, lest you be penalized yourself (err, Natalie). 

You obviously have dedicated a huge portion of your life to the game and are instilling the correct principles to your daughter, including the rules as well as the courtesies of the game.

While I don't think there was a single instance in which the other (let's call them a) family handled any situation particularly well, they may perceive the game differently than you (and yes, in a tournament that's their problem, they SHOULD understand the rules).

But, unlike in basically ALL other sports, you must conduct the rules between yourselves; whereas in baseball, soccer, etc there are umps, refs, etc. The daughter may have wanted to get into golf for XYZ reason, or maybe the dad pushed her, but they may all have had the (incorrect) mentality that the sport just takes care of itself (like all other sports, with the refs and the umps and stuff).

He initially approaches you a few times for what to do do which I'm sure you responded casually and respectfully, but when he hears some of the rulings and freaks out (like learning about the 2-stroke penalties) when he doesn't actually know the rules himself he may (incorrectly) think that you're one of those elitist dads who's trying to take advantage of the situation and "bring down the hammer" on them. Despite how you may have nicely put it. We all know those guys. 

From there, it's a snowball in his mind. He thinks you're out to get him. He rages to his wife that night and she builds it up in her head, which is unfair to you and Natalie.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel like you've done anything wrong. But in my line of work I often have very similar situations as this one here. They're uncomfortable situations and the BEST solutions can be tediously inefficient, but they're the best way to resolve the issue.

If you know you'll be seeing this guy again, maybe it's best to just calmly approach him along the lines of playing into his ego such as "Hey, I really don't want you guys to think I'm trying to be a jerk or anything. This is a weird game where I'm uncomfortable because I know that if I allow any other player to breach a rule I'm risking a penalty for my daughter. It's a crazy game in that way, because I can't just ignore it. Unlike in soccer, football, etc where there are refs we sort of have to ref each other whether we want to or not. I'm sure your intentions are good and to follow the rules too but I want you to know that I'm in no way trying to affect your daughter's score; I think this has just blown out of proportion." Maybe say something like how you think his daughter has talent or blah blah blah to chalk him up a bit?

If you can't tell, I'm a pretty passive guy lol. 

I'm also a pretty young guy, so I may be naive on this kind of thing (I don't even have children). But being young and having a "threatening" level of education I get this type of crap ALL the time from people. It doesn't help that I look like I'm 18. So I've had to learn how to deal with a lot of people like this, in this type of situation. And this is how I've done it. I mostly just feed into egos. May not be the way you should go about it though. I also wasn't there lol.

Best of luck. Sorry you have to go through this. I'm sure you guys just want to go out and have a good time, be competitive, and play by the rules! :) 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Shindig said:

I didn't play youth golf, so I don't know if this is an unreasonable question, but is it possible to get a neutral observer on these rounds?  Or maybe bring along someone they don't know who can float as an observer of several groups and intervene?

Yeah, that'd be kind of ridiculous (in the unnecessary sense), because most parents comport themselves just fine.

Just now, jkelley9 said:

I imagine that must be frustrating for you, and Natalie. Their actions have certainly affected Natalie's game, I'm sure. And that's not fair to either of you. Although Natalie is learning some good lessons about having to deal with peoples' craziness lol.

She shot her best score today - a 91 - in USKG events! She was having trouble with the tops and, honestly, I think the crying and the mom's yelling at her distracted her long enough to play some good golf for awhile.

Just now, jkelley9 said:

This is tricky because of the fact that you can't "let" them break a rule, lest you be penalized yourself (err, Natalie).

Nobody would call Natalie on a penalty if we overlooked something. But we shouldn't have to overlook anything, and there are often more than just the three girls in our group competing, and someone may finish second, third, or fourth by a stroke that should have rightfully been added to the score. So there's a bit of the "protecting the field" at play, but even beyond that… when they ask me directly what to do, what can I do but say "no, you don't get relief there."?

Just now, jkelley9 said:

You obviously have dedicated a huge portion of your life to the game and are instilling the correct principles to your daughter, including the rules as well as the courtesies of the game.

She knows the rules pretty well, where to stand, etc. She called out a local phenom for shaving strokes in a recent local event. She plays those all by herself (nobody has caddies).

Just now, jkelley9 said:

While I don't think there was a single instance in which the other (let's call them a) family handled any situation particularly well, they may perceive the game differently than you (and yes, in a tournament that's their problem, they SHOULD understand the rules).

Undoubtedly that's the case, but since it's a tournament, following the Rules is the only way things must be able to go.

Just now, jkelley9 said:

He initially approaches you a few times for what to do do which I'm sure you responded casually and respectfully, but when he hears some of the rulings and freaks out (like learning about the 2-stroke penalties) when he doesn't actually know the rules himself he may (incorrectly) think that you're one of those elitist dads who's trying to take advantage of the situation and "bring down the hammer" on them. Despite how you may have nicely put it. We all know those guys.

The daughters of the tournament director told my wife something like "People like to blame you when you just tell them what the rule says, like you just made it up to punish them on the spot."

I think that's what happened there. They blame the person informing them of the rules… not their lack of knowledge of the rules themselves.

Just now, jkelley9 said:

From there, it's a snowball in his mind. He thinks you're out to get him. He rages to his wife that night and she builds it up in her head, which is unfair to you and Natalie.

Perception can be a shitty thing.

Just now, jkelley9 said:

If you know you'll be seeing this guy again, maybe it's best to just calmly approach him along the lines of playing into his ego such as "Hey, I really don't want you guys to think I'm trying to be a jerk or anything. This is a weird game where I'm uncomfortable because I know that if I allow any other player to breach a rule I'm risking a penalty for my daughter. It's a crazy game in that way, because I can't just ignore it. Unlike in soccer, football, etc where there are refs we sort of have to ref each other whether we want to or not. I'm sure your intentions are good and to follow the rules too but I want you to know that I'm in no way trying to affect your daughter's score; I think this has just blown out of proportion." Maybe say something like how you think his daughter has talent or blah blah blah to chalk him up a bit?

I appreciate that, but I can't see myself doing that, and I don't likely have to think about it much, as this was the last tournament of the year (most likely) for Natalie in this USKG tour.

Plus, it's really not my style. I tend to avoid any confrontation. If something needs to be said, I will say it, but this doesn't approach "need" IMO.

Just now, jkelley9 said:

I'm also a pretty young guy, so I may be naive on this kind of thing (I don't even have children). But being young and having a "threatening" level of education I get this type of crap ALL the time from people. It doesn't help that I look like I'm 18. So I've had to learn how to deal with a lot of people like this, in this type of situation. And this is how I've done it. I mostly just feed into egos. May not be the way you should go about it though. I also wasn't there lol.

Like I said, I was mostly just shocked. I've never been personally offended by the Rules of Golf. In short, too, like I said above: I spend my time worrying about Natalie, and not other people, so more time worrying about this is just a waste.

But it was cathartic to type it out, plus my memory of this event will likely fade… so this puts it down in writing.

[mvmac]

Sorry you had to deal with this crap @iacas. Those parents are thinking, "my daughter is going to shoot a high score, won't win so it doesn't matter if she doesn't plays by all the rules" but that's part of playing golf, especially if you sign up for a tournament. It's the same thing if they signed her up for basketball, she has to play by the same rules as all the other players, she can't travel with the ball just because she might be uncoordinated. 

Good to hear that Natalie is doing well and shot a good score after the mom's tantrum.

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

The saga, sadly, continues.

Monday, Jane had her grandfather caddying for her. On the first tee, the tour director had to remind the grandpa not to stand on her line while she played her tee shot from the tee box on the first hole. On the second green, after he'd stood behind her on every shot except her first, I reminded him of this with a casual "Hey, you can't stand on her line while she plays. Just step out at the last second if you want to help line her up." and he said "Oh yes, that's right, I have to step aside. But this isn't the PGA…" Ooooookay.

(Also, I didn't know at the time about the first tee thing. I mostly just pay attention to my kid, particularly on the first tee as she is often a little nervous.)

So on the third hole, there was a bit of GUR (marked, though, with orange flags… but clearly what was intended to be GUR). Jane's ball was in the fairway or fringe about four feet from the GUR area (just longer uncut grass, new grass they were trying to grow I guess) and the hole was on the green, with the GUR between.

The grandpa said "we need to find the nearest point." I had an idea so I walked past (on my way to help my kid anyway) and he said "we're taking relief." I said "for what?" He said "for this ground under repair." I said "well, you can't. It's not on the putting green, and it's not affecting her lie, stance, or area of swing." He said "but she wants to putt, so she's going to have to play through it." I said "okay, but none of those conditions are true, so… she can't take relief." He said "She wants to putt." I said "I understand that, but you don't get relief because GUR is on the line you want to play. She could chip or play over it or to the side." (Though to the side would make no sense, really… I just didn't want to give anything you might take as advice and was just trying to point out the options, while being a bit more casual about it too.) He grumbled something and she putted and barely got through the long grass. Natalie beat Jane by 15.

Jane, btw, routinely stands behind her ball marker on the putting green even if she's only four feet from the hole and people are putting past her. She does a number of other weird things, like putting from 20 feet away while Natalie was finishing out a tap-in after a par putt… just aloof and unaware of her surroundings type of things. We ask her to move when she's in the way, but otherwise, ignore her really.

So anyway, today, Natalie was playing the Tour Championship. Jane's mom was caddying, with her dad (from the OP) walking along. On the second hole, the mom loudly says to us as we're walking up the fairway "There's still one more to play!" because a girl was in the right rough playing up. She'd have had to hit the ball past her left ankle to hit us, and we were 50 yards away, but okay… whatever. We stopped.

Then on the third hole Natalie made a 5 and her marker asked her what she got. Natalie said "5" and then the next thing I knew Jane's mom was coming back down the hill like a charging rhino pointing her finger and saying "She made six. Drive, second shot, third shot, chip (there was no chip), and two putts. THAT'S A SIX!" I didn't even know what was happening, but Natalie said something like "I didn't chip." Then started crying because some woman was yelling at her. Her marker said "I know you got a five. I got it. Don't worry about it." The husband and I said something like "she had a 5" at about the same time. The woman stormed off up the hill to the next tee. My daughter was still crying as she thinned her tee shot on the par three fourth, and was still really shaken and upset, and I turned around and said "You know, I feel like you owe my daughter an apology."

This set the mom off.

She said "Ha! You've been rude to my daughter all year with these penalties and making rude comments. I don't care if you're a golf pro, you're full of it and these girls are just trying to play and enjoy golf." I asked "What are you talking about? What rude comments? Huh?" She said "I will not stoop to your level. I will not get into it here. If you want to take five minutes to hash it out fine, my husband is right over there. Talk to him. You've been rude all year with these penalties and it doesn't matter what caddy we have for Jane, you are just out to ruin everything." At this point Natalie was bawling even more and she said "I do apologize to you but your husband, errr, dad should shut his mouth and stop making rude comments about Jane and just let them play." To which Natalie says "He has never said anything?! What did he ever say?" (Answer: nothing. We don't talk about Jane, really, except to say "nice shot" or "good par" or "good speed" or whatever you say when playing golf… or occasionally, to Jane, "Hey Jane, could you move over a bit while Natalie putts?" or something like that, as well as the two or three rulings she's had to get all year… none of which indicated they knew anything about the Rules of Golf.)

The woman said "well, we're sick of it, and you can talk to my husband if you don't know."

Apparently the folks in the group behind heard her yelling at us. Natalie's marker came over and said "sorry, I don't know what that was about, you had a five." Even Jane seemed completely unaware of whatever she was talking about.

The rest of the round Jane's mom and dad would glare at us any time Natalie and I put our heads together and talked about things. Just as we always do… we're talking about her swing, where to aim her next shot, or things that have to do only with Natalie's game, or her friends, or whatever. We don't worry about Jane. But I think now they think maybe we were talking about them those times, and every time. As if we really care about Jane. We've drummed into Natalie that she can only ever worry about her game. And I enforce that by only ever worrying about her game, too.

If I had thought of it (frankly, I was so caught off guard I wasn't thinking of much of anything besides "huh?"), I might have said something like "talk to your husband? He didn't say anything the first time. She probably should have had a 10 or something, and it's not my problem that you don't know the rules of golf."

This whole thing, with a few hours of hindsight, feels like they hated us from the moment of that ruling and took everything after that in the worst possible way. "Look at those two over there talking about us." "Look at that dick giving us another shitty ruling." Etc. And it just builds and builds and builds, until you end up with a mom yelling at my kid and making her cry. WTF?

Oh, and Natalie played a shot today off what clearly should have been GUR, but which was unmarked, so she played it as it lie (a bit dirt area before a cart path), and did what she could with it. Because we follow the Rules of Golf.

Last thing: the Rules of Golf exist for a reason. Don't ****ing enter a golf tournament and then expect people to just make shit up as they go. GUR between your ball and the hole through the green? SUUUUUUUUURE, take all the relief you want! Lost ball? SUUUUUUURE, just drop where you think you lost it without any penalty at all. And take ten minutes to look for it if you want, too! Why not? They're just kids, right?

No. They're nearly high school age girls who are playing competitive golf and who will, most likely, play for their high schools, etc. So I'm sorry if you don't know the rules, but perhaps learn them. They're not that hard. You don't get to drop where you think you lost your ball, you get five minutes to find them, you don't get relief just because you think you should, and you don't get to yell at my kid (particularly when you're wrong about it).

Grrrrr.

And cleansing breath, and, done.

P.S. The rest of the round went by without much incident. We continued to be nice to Jane. She talked with us a few times, and seemed completely unaware of anything going on. Natalie beat her again (the wide open course made it closer than at other courses where you can't hit your ball 80 yards right and be fine). On the ninth she hit her ball into the woods and asked her mom if she should hit a provisional, and her mom said "no let's go up there and see what we find." Uhhhh, okay. My wife pointed out where her ball was, 50 yards from where they were looking and with a clear chip to the green. Because we're not interested in punishing Jane.

On the 18th hole Jane hit it into the mulched area around the clubhouse. I avoided going near them lest they think I was trying to watch her closely or something. The mom/dad were saying "let's go get the tournament director for a ruling" but she just played out of it, took two to chip on, and three-putted for a 7. Before her second putt her mom said "Maybe she should play a second ball." I thought to myself "too late. She already played the shot and didn't announce her intentions…" but just smiled to myself, almost hoping they'd try that, because I knew by then that Natalie had beaten her regardless, and that the Rules were on my side again…

The "husband" didn't say anything to me after the round. I kinda hoped he would, so I could get the rules book and point out whatever he wanted to see, but it's better that he didn't.

But like I said, relatively stress-free after the fourth and fifth holes and the crying stopped.

I feel bad for Natalie. In one sense, she needs to know that people like this exist in the world. She will encounter them her whole life. But in another sense, golf is supposed to be fun. Competition is supposed to be challenging but fun. Parents like this never see that and it may have affected Natalie's outlook for competition. That would be the real loss.

I coached a kid in soccer who was a decent athlete, but not a proficient soccer player. I had him on many city teams from maybe U8 -12. When we moved up to the 14s, it became travel soccer and we had try outs instead of just picks. I knew this kids first love was football and he planned to play it in HS. So in picking my team, I picked the best players even though I liked the kid a lot but there were better players than him.

What I didn't know was his Dad was furious. He stopped saying hello to me and glared at me. When I asked him why he said, "You know!". My team and his son's team both won the Commissioner's Cup in our divisions and the next year his kid moved to a better team. So it all worked out for the kid. But the seething continued. He probably still hates me. The kid doesn't, nor his mom. Instead of seeing that his son was not that good and was going to play football anyway, he chose to see it as my disrespect to him. Sad really.

[iacas]

I think that Natalie actually handles it pretty well. She stood up for herself (and me). She wouldn't have just blindly protected me and ignored it if I'd actually done anything to Jane, ever. She'd have definitely told my wife on me if that was the case.

She just saw it as a crazy mother jealous of Natalie beating her Jane despite giving up a foot of height or more and whatever else that entails.

It was clear as day to even Natalie that this had been building, unbeknownst to us, for quite some time. She was retelling the story about the "crazy lady" she ran into to her friends on the phone last night.

BTW, it might be wise of the USKG organization to have a really basic rules test for the players and their parents to complete. Maybe even offer a few bucks off the registration fee (they do this if you take a "Positive Coaching Alliance" test already).

[saevel25]

The worse part is always the influence these things can have on the kid. I am glad to hear that Natalie handle it well. These type of parents can really have a negative influence on kids wanting to participate in sports. If Jane really enjoys golf I hope her parents don't cause her to give it up. 

The rules of golf are there to make sure everyone is playing on equal footing, allowing their playing ability to determine the outcome. The rules are not there to make it easier for the golfer. 

 

[mcanadiens]

Gee. That sounds awful. 

I don't know anything about kids or youth golf, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. What about letting the kids go out on their own and sort it out on their own? I know you said most parents aren't an issue, but do the parents need to be there in the first place?

 

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Gee. That sounds awful. 

I don't know anything about kids or youth golf, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. What about letting the kids go out on their own and sort it out on their own? I know you said most parents aren't an issue, but do the parents need to be there in the first place?

They get to caddie for their kids, so they do.