How to Disregard Results When Practicing

[JonMA1]

I read a lot on here about how the resulting shot shouldn't matter when working on a very specific piece. I'll admit, I'm very poor at practicing. I thoroughly enjoy hitting golf balls and I often get carried away with that instead of focusing on a cure for a current weakness.

Now, I may or may not be working on the right thing, but that isn't really my question. I believe a failure of key #2 to be the reason for a recent decline of good contact and tonight I went out with the sole intent of exaggerating the weight shift and pivot points. I started out well. Several slow practice swings and then the same slow swing at the ball. Topped the heck out of it but didn't worry about it. Repeated the steps and concentrated on the feel of what I was trying for instead of the result. By disregarding the ball flight, it made it easier to assess the practice. Even when I did hit a solid shot, if it was after a failure to shift my weight I was able to recognize it.

After starting to hit more and more good shots, I lost focus on what had been the intended priority piece of this practice. I started adjusting my path and club face to try and hit draw. After a while, I had to kind of "snap out of it" and went back to the weight shift work. 

If this inability to properly focus isn't my biggest downfall, I don't know what is. Does anyone else find it hard to disregard the flight/shot quality when practicing, or to gauge how well the work is going by how well you hit the ball while practicing? Any suggestions other than the obvious "just don't do it"? How much time do you give yourself when working on a piece before you start to look towards good results?

[gregsandiego]

5 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

 

If this inability to properly focus isn't my biggest downfall, I don't know what is. Does anyone else find it hard to disregard the flight/shot quality when practicing, or to gauge how well the work is going by how well you hit the ball while practicing? Any suggestions other than the obvious "just don't do it"? How much time do you give yourself when working on a piece before you start to look towards good results?

I know what you mean. You'll have people on here say you should be prepared to hit crap while making a swing adjustment.  I'm a little skeptical of that.

If you don't get some good results in a short term, even if it's the minority of shots, I really don't see how it's going to work. That's just too much literal negative feedback for the mind to work.

Can you imagine practicing the piano, hitting all the wrong keys, and your teacher just telling you to keep  doing what you are doing?

With my current instructor, yes I did all kind of crazy stuff like tops and whiffs, but occasionally I'd hit further than I hit before. I need at least that positive feedback.

 

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

I know what you mean. You'll have people on here say you should be prepared to hit crap while making a swing adjustment.  I'm a little skeptical of that.

Sometimes that's true. But "a while" is a pretty short time, hopefully, and usually.

After all, a swing with six compensations might produce better results initially than a swing that's very different but better.

[billchao]

49 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Any suggestions other than the obvious "just don't do it"?

Net + video. But other than that you just have to find the mental discipline to stick with it.

I find it interesting that you were hitting the ball well and started tweaking. For me, if I'm doing a particular move and it allows me to hit the ball really well, I keep trying to produce the exact sensation in order to replicate the result.

46 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

I know what you mean. You'll have people on here say you should be prepared to hit crap while making a swing adjustment.  I'm a little skeptical of that.

I don't agree with this at all. You're probably going to hit some odd shots here and there, but the way you typed it makes it seem like you are going to hit mostly bad shots when you make a change. If you change your swing and hit garbage shots all day, how is that improving?

What we say around here is just because you hit a bad shot while making a swing change doesn't mean you made a bad swing. What's important is, if the focus is to make a movement change, you judge the quality of the practice by how well you made that move rather than how well you happened to strike the ball.

[Jeremie Boop]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

Net + video. But other than that you just have to find the mental discipline to stick with it.

The net and video thing I completely agree with. I found it much easier to focus on making the changes when I wasn't able to see the flight of the ball. When I'm able to see where the ball goes I start thinking less about the better contact I'm achieving and more about getting the ball to go where I want it to go instead. I am getting better at disregarding that, but it still creeps back and I have to fight it.

[Rainmaker]

hmm . .2 things:

1.  I was one of those "6 compensation" guys . .although it was more like 3 or 4.  Over the last 4 months, I've gone (am going) to that "much better but very different" swing.  I worked about 50% on my own and 50% with my teacher (ie - I took about half the lessons I really should have) so my periods of shanking it were probably more numerous and lasted longer.  I went through several and they lasted a week or 2 each. 

2.  A net.  I have exactly the same problem at the range that you describe - I can't help but start tinkering around.  I don't even consider the range as pure "practice" because of this.  I use the range as a way to kind of "baby-step" my swing changes from the garage to the course. 

I'm not sure I could've dealt with all that shanking at the driving range.  I would literally hit 20 bad mishits in a row some days - would've been 100 if I was at the range with a large bucket.     

[gregsandiego]

2 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

The net and video thing I completely agree with. I found it much easier to focus on making the changes when I wasn't able to see the flight of the ball. When I'm able to see where the ball goes I start thinking less about the better contact I'm achieving and more about getting the ball to go where I want it to go instead. I am getting better at disregarding that, but it still creeps back and I have to fight it.

Interesting that 3 of you guys think a net is a great swing adjustment aid. Most of the discussions I've read before (net vs range) considered the net better for convenience only.

[Piz]

Whenever you are working on something; remind yourself that you are there to discover what is right about it...not to catalog everything that goes wrong.  Who would buy 99 Things to Avoid while trying to play golf?  Who would benefit (besides the author) if they did?  Practice is discovering what is right...the stuff that goes haywire is an occupational hazard.

[JonMA1]

18 hours ago, billchao said:

Net + video. But other than that you just have to find the mental discipline to stick with it.

Thanks Bill. This makes sense for the reasons @Jeremie Booplisted. All winter I hit into the net because I can't hit outside, but I never thought of using it for summer workouts.

18 hours ago, billchao said:

I find it interesting that you were hitting the ball well and started tweaking. For me, if I'm doing a particular move and it allows me to hit the ball really well, I keep trying to produce the exact sensation in order to replicate the result.

If you were referring to the part of my post where I switched to working on key # 4 after a few improved shots, I think that was the wrong thing to do.  

My immediate objective wasn't to hit good shots - I can do that (on an inconsistent basis) with my weight staying back. My objective last night was to become familiar with a proper weight shift while hitting golf balls - if that makes sense. Shot quality wasn't my primary objective of that part of the practice session. I feel confident that when/if the shift becomes "natural", I can then do what's necessary to improve contact. 

15 hours ago, Piz said:

Whenever you are working on something; remind yourself that you are there to discover what is right about it...not to catalog everything that goes wrong.  Who would buy 99 Things to Avoid while trying to play golf?  Who would benefit (besides the author) if they did?  Practice is discovering what is right...the stuff that goes haywire is an occupational hazard.

Agreed, We can certainly get carried away with the negatives. 

I'm pretty certain getting weight forward helps with other issues. The immediate feel is that there's just a bit more club head speed coming into the ball. I don't know why or how this happens, but when I can pull it off I know it's a better position to be in at impact.

As far as things to avoid, I can think of a few I wish I knew about before I developed them into bad habits.

 

Thanks for the replies everyone.

[No Mulligans]

My typical week, I hit foam balls into a net about 5 or 6 times a week, hit at the range about 1 or 2 times a week, and play a 9 hole round once and an executive 18 once or twice.  That's a lot but I enjoy it.  My foam balls into a net sessions can be pretty short, about 15 minutes.

It is definitely easiest for me to work on the process and not worry about results when hitting foam balls into a net.  The range and the rounds are ball flight reality checks.

[RandallT]

Great topic, Jon. Nothing too momentous to add, but this is a good reminder for me. Today at the range, I wasn't able to change my picture much, and a factor may have been that I was watching my ball flight- even on my many swings that were intentionally going only 50yds. I'll try not even looking down range next time. 

[billchao]

3 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

If you were referring to the part of my post where I switched to working on key # 4 after a few improved shots, I think that was the wrong thing to do.

Yea that is the part I was talking about, and good that you recognized it. Stick to one piece at a time 

[nevets88]

Totally agree with video. If I hit a bad shot on the range but the video shows a different move than what I was doing, doing what instructor is trying to get me to do, that skanky ball flight doesn't bother me, eventually it will sort itself out. If I hit a great looking shot but  the video shows that I'm not changing anything, I'm disappointed. There should be a steady improvement of ball flight with the new move. 

You also have to know how best to recognize the change, via one or both fo and dtl angles. Either use a receipt as a substitute line or even a erase on your screen. 

[JonMA1]

I took Bill's advice yesterday and hit into the net for a while. While inside, getting weight forward felt very easy and natural. But once outside, it was like trying to swim against a current. I just gave up after a while.

Tonight I practiced outside and recorded some DTL and FO views. Sure enough, my weight was way back in the face ons. Took only a few shots at a time, looked at the video on my phone, made adjustments and repeated.

I hadn't taken video since early spring. It's really a tough pill to swallow when you have crappy swing. But... I stuck with it and by the end of the practice, I started to change the picture. Still an ugly swing, but some changes in the right direction. (Couldn't help but watch the ball flight but I didn't let that break my concentration.)

As far as jumping from one key to the other, here's the strange thing. When my weight stays back, so do my hands which of course leads to a failure of key #3. Making sure they were ahead at contact helped in getting my weight to shift.

I hate to make a declaration of success based on a single practice session (and I still have a long way to go with this one piece), but I may have learned a couple things tonight.

First, I have to check any ego when I work on this stuff. The swing looks bad. Period. But my goal wasn't to record a pretty swing - it was to improve a specific piece. Gotta remember that.

Second, as @nevets88 and others suggested, good contact will eventually happen. Focusing on that alone only distracts me from the goal. Maybe all this time I've let the shot results develop my swing instead of the other way around. 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 7/13/2016 at 11:18 PM, JonMA1 said:

I took Bill's advice yesterday and hit into the net for a while. While inside, getting weight forward felt very easy and natural. But once outside, it was like trying to swim against a current. I just gave up after a while.

Second, as @nevets88 and others suggested, good contact will eventually happen. Focusing on that alone only distracts me from the goal. Maybe all this time I've let the shot results develop my swing instead of the other way around. 

I was about to respond to an earlier comment by saying that if there is no one present to tell you that you are making a move correctly, how will you know? But, with the advent of digital, on line vids, there is no shortage of eyes. You just need to be sure the eyes know what they are looking at!

Your last paragraph is what really got me thinking. About results developing the swing. That reminds me of something I read in Bagger Vance. Not to get too metaphysical about it, but the player is only concerned with results, while his teacher is concerned only with his swing! As Bagger says, "Stop rooting for your ball!" "Swing your swing!" And every player has their own swing. Just look at the pros if you need any proof. There are a lot of swings out there that wouldn't be taught by any reputable instructor!

[JetFan1983]

Practice on a Trackman, or with a good instructor, or on a Flightscope, or even just with a camera, and it's easy to disregard bad results.

Shanked it? The instructor says your swing was better, you just didn't make good contact because you have no experience with this new, better motion. Keep doing it. 

Pushed it? No worries, your club path was actually 3 degrees right, not five degrees left like it always is. You changed your path. You just didn't get the club face closed enough relative to the path that time, but you can improve with that over time. Keep doing it.

Thinned the crap out of it? No worries, you just checked your camera and it clearly shows you made a different, better motion that time. Keep doing it. 

Pull sliced it? Oops, the flight scope says you actually are still swinging 12 degrees to the left. You're making the same bad swing again. Really commit and exaggerate the opposite feel to zero out this path. This is a bad result you know was due to a "same old, same old" swing. Stop doing it. Modify the feel.

 

It's harder to interpret bad results on the range when you have no idea what kind of swing you just made. But when you have data, video, or an extra set of (educated) eyes supporting the feels you are using, you can. Then when you're on your own, you can remember those feels you used, and have more confidence when you're practicing. 

[JonMA1]

On 7/17/2016 at 9:52 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

I was about to respond to an earlier comment by saying that if there is no one present to tell you that you are making a move correctly, how will you know?

I don't think there is a substitute for a good instructor. Took 4 Evolvr lessons this past winter. The immediate response from the instructor turned out to be huge in terms of improvement. And I don't think I would have seen it myself.

But having said that, many of us have faults that are so bad, that anyone who understands and believes in the 5SK commonalities can identify them.

I took a Video log of a few rounds of golf last weekend. It was eye-opening how far I had slipped backwards in the span of a couple months. My scores weren't drastically different, but my distances and subsequently my confidence started to diminish.

On 7/17/2016 at 9:52 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

"Swing your swing!" And every player has their own swing. Just look at the pros if you need any proof. There are a lot of swings out there that wouldn't be taught by any reputable instructor!

I'm not sure I agree 100% with the "Swing your swing" idea. To some extent, sure. I'll never have a Tour Player's swing. So yes, at some point you have to just play golf with what you have and enjoy the results.

At the same time, if a swing fault is limiting your enjoyment of the game, wouldn't you want to improve it even if just a bit?

On 7/17/2016 at 10:07 PM, JetFan1983 said:

Practice on a Trackman, or with a good instructor, or on a Flightscope, or even just with a camera, and it's easy to disregard bad results.

Shanked it? The instructor says your swing was better, you just didn't make good contact because you have no experience with this new, better motion. Keep doing it. 

Pushed it? No worries, your club path was actually 3 degrees right, not five degrees left like it always is. You changed your path. You just didn't get the club face closed enough relative to the path that time, but you can improve with that over time. Keep doing it.

Thinned the crap out of it? No worries, you just checked your camera and it clearly shows you made a different, better motion that time. Keep doing it. 

Pull sliced it? Oops, the flight scope says you actually are still swinging 12 degrees to the left. You're making the same bad swing again. Really commit and exaggerate the opposite feel to zero out this path. This is a bad result you know was due to a "same old, same old" swing. Stop doing it. Modify the feel.

It's harder to interpret bad results on the range when you have no idea what kind of swing you just made. But when you have data, video, or an extra set of (educated) eyes supporting the feels you are using, you can. Then when you're on your own, you can remember those feels you used, and have more confidence when you're practicing. 

I like this way of thinking and as others have said in countless threads, you almost have to accept the bad shots at first. I also like the idea of exaggerating the "fix" . In lieu of trackman and/or an instructor, video seems absolutely necessary in identifying issues and then matching up the feels of the fix with the reality of what's really going on.

---

With the recent realization of just how bad my swing is/was, I've turned the practicing up a notch. There is one other thing I'm starting to realize. When I can pull off a better practice swing but cannot apply that same swing to the actual shot, It's a trust issue.

This week I was able to apply the practice swing to my shot. In my mind I'm thinking there's no way this can produce more club head speed. But I went with it and was willing to accept the poor results.

Surprise, surprise! After a few swings, the results were an improvement. It feels awkward as hell but I'm hoping that will pass. 

[Buckeyebowman]

13 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

I don't think there is a substitute for a good instructor. Took 4 Evolvr lessons this past winter. The immediate response from the instructor turned out to be huge in terms of improvement. And I don't think I would have seen it myself.

I'm not sure I agree 100% with the "Swing your swing" idea. To some extent, sure. I'll never have a Tour Player's swing. So yes, at some point you have to just play golf with what you have and enjoy the results.

 

---

With the recent realization of just how bad my swing is/was, I've turned the practicing up a notch. There is one other thing I'm starting to realize. When I can pull off a better practice swing but cannot apply that same swing to the actual shot, It's a trust issue.

 

I think you've made my point for me. Neither you nor I may ever have a tour player's swing, but we can attain the best swing of which we are capable. How much we allow the presence of the ball to influence that swing determines our success. 

And for the the person who quoted your post, whose name I've lost, is concerned, a practice swing means basically nothing. You don't have to square the clubface in a practice swing!