Attending the Flagstick

[GolfLug]

So last week in my league play, I tended the flagstick for a playing partner (he was on the green). As usual I started to hold the pin standing over 3 feet away with a slight bend in the pin (I try not to bend the pin like on TV where I feel like sometimes they are about to break it in half).

He asked me to tend it with the pin perfectly straight, just barely touching it. I did so without asking why but it was perfectly clear that he was using the pin 'straightness' as an alignment aid. I tried to look up rules specifics of tending the flagstick and couldn't find it addressed anywhere. So, is that legal?

 

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

He asked me to tend it with the pin perfectly straight, just barely touching it. I did so without asking why but it was perfectly clear that he was using the pin 'straightness' as an alignment aid. I tried to look up rules specifics of tending the flagstick and couldn't find it addressed anywhere. So, is that legal?

I found this rule, 

Quote

14-3. Artificial Devices and Unusual Equipment; Abnormal Use of Equipment

Rule 14-3 governs the use of equipment and devices (including electronic devices) that might assist a player in making a specific stroke or generally in his play.

Golf is a challenging game in which success should depend on the judgement, skills and abilities of the player. This principle guides the USGA in determining whether the use of any item is in breach of Rule 14-3.

For detailed specifications and interpretations on the conformity of equipment and devices under Rule 14-3and the process for consultation and submission regarding equipment and devices, see Appendix IV.

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment, or use any equipment in an abnormal manner:

a.

That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or

b.

For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play; or

c.

That might assist him in gripping the club, except that:

(i)

gloves may be worn provided that they are plain gloves;

(ii)

resin, powder and drying or moisturizing agents may be used; and

(iii)

a towel or handkerchief may be wrapped around the grip.

They go on this decision here that goes into using something for alignment purposes, 

Quote

14-3/10.3

 

Use of Rod During Round for Alignment or as Swing Aid

Q.During a stipulated round, may a player use a rod or similar device to check his alignment or his swing plane?

A.No. The player would be using an artificial device or unusual equipment to assist him in his play in breach of Rule 14-3. Carrying the rod or similar device is not, of itself, a breach of a Rule. (Revised)

Some might say that the flagstick is not equipment. Yet the rules deem items such as bunker rakes as equipment when held by a player. 

I could see this violating rule 14-3. I think primarily because the intent was there to use an object in a manor to assist the golfer. I think this violates the basic premise of rule 14-3. 

[jlbos83]

The definition of the flagstick says that it is straight, and centered in the hole.  I don't see any way that asking it to be straight, and centered in the hole while it is attended could be a violation.  One might actually have more of an argument to say that holding it any other way with the intention of not showing the hole's position might be a violation on the part of the tender (though I think that a serious reach.)

The flagstick, while in the hole is certainly not a swing aid, an alignment rod, nor equipment of the player.  And it is certainly not being used in an abnormal manner.

So, based on the definition that the flagstick is straight, and is centered in the hold to show its position, I don't see any possible case for a violation.  The stick could be made of a steel rod, and not even be bendable.  

[Missouri Swede]

Rule 17-1 says that "the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole."

If it's allowed to be held up, I don't see a problem with holding it straight.

Here's a somewhat-related decision:

Quote

17-1/4.5 Flagstick Attendant Removes Flagstick and Holds It Upright Behind Hole; End of Flagstick Touches Green
Q.A player preparing to putt asks his caddie to attend the flagstick. The caddie removes the flagstick from the hole and holds it upright two or three inches directly behind the hole, with the end of the flagstick touching the putting green. He attends the flagstick in this manner to eliminate the risk of the flagstick sticking in the hole. Is such a procedure a breach of the Rules?

A.No, but such a practice is not recommended because of the possibility of damage to the putting green.

So it seems that there is some leeway in acceptable methods of attending the flagstick.

[DaveP043]

Quote

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

That's from Rule 17-1, which addresses tending the flagstick.  If Its  legal for someone to tend the flag without touching it, simply by standing near it, then it certainly seems legal to ask the attendant to touch it only gently. 

[Used2PlayALot]

I never understood the whole point of tending the stick.   If the putt is going to hit the stick, do you pull it, or leave it in ?

[krupa]

6 minutes ago, Used2PlayALot said:

I never understood the whole point of tending the stick.   If the putt is going to hit the stick, do you pull it, or leave it in ?

Good explanation of different scenarios:

http://www.usga.org/videos/2015/12/23/rules-of-golf-explained--the-flagstick-4673621926001.html

[GolfLug]

Thanks for the input all. Seem like not a rules violation on his part since I would agree that the normal condition of the pin is that is straight and upright (unless wind affecting it), so I guess ok for him to ASK for it since not ABNORMAL state. The object of the pin is to solely locate the tool and not act as a plumb bobbing aid, so I do think he is skirting the premise of 14.3 as @saevel25 posted. 

Now, since he is a competitor and I know that he is using the pin to plumb bob (he admitted to it), can I refuse to hold it straight and bend it a bit anyway to deny him the advantage? Is there anything in the rules that says I have to conform? He is a bit of dick and we aren't exactly best friends so I don't mind 'sticking' it to him . 

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

So last week in my league play, I tended the flagstick for a playing partner (he was on the green). As usual I started to hold the pin standing over 3 feet away with a slight bend in the pin (I try not to bend the pin like on TV where I feel like sometimes they are about to break it in half).

He asked me to tend it with the pin perfectly straight, just barely touching it. I did so without asking why but it was perfectly clear that he was using the pin 'straightness' as an alignment aid. I tried to look up rules specifics of tending the flagstick and couldn't find it addressed anywhere. So, is that legal?

 

Just one comment, the pro caddies don't bend the flagstick, or at least most don't.  They remove it from the socket and then rest it in the center of the cup and lean it back away from the ball.  Bending a fiberglass flagstick even a little bit does irreparable damage to it at the bottom where it joins the plug.  A lot of courses have metal flagsticks which have no flexibility at all.

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Thanks for the input all. Seem like not a rules violation on his part since I would agree that the normal condition of the pin is that is straight and upright (unless wind affecting it), so I guess ok for him to ASK for it since not ABNORMAL state. The object of the pin is to solely locate the tool and not act as a plumb bobbing aid, so I do think he is skirting the premise of 14.3 as @saevel25 posted. 

Now, since he is a competitor and I know that he is using the pin to plumb bob (he admitted to it), can I refuse to hold it straight and bend it a bit anyway to deny him the advantage? Is there anything in the rules that says I have to conform? He is a bit of dick and we aren't exactly best friends so I don't mind 'sticking' it to him . 

If you are asked to attend the flagstick, you don't have to do anything but ensure that it is removed from the hole before the ball gets there.  He can request all he wants, but you don't even have to touch the stick before he addresses the ball.

[Missouri Swede]

20 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

If you are asked to attend the flagstick, you don't have to do anything but ensure that it is removed from the hole before the ball gets there.

Don't even have to do that:

Quote

17-1/2

 Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Declines to Attend Flagstick

Q.Does a player have any redress if he requests his opponent or a fellow-competitor to attend the flagstick for him and the opponent or fellow-competitor declines?

A.No.

Not that I'd ever refuse.  I'd be surprised that anyone would.  But I'm guessing that the decision is there because it happened. 

[Hardspoon]

9 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Don't even have to do that:

Not that I'd ever refuse.  I'd be surprised that anyone would.  But I'm guessing that the decision is there because it happened. 

Now THAT would be an awkward round of golf. 

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

He is a bit of dick and we aren't exactly best friends so I don't mind 'sticking' it to him . 

Sounds like you have your solution: don't tend it at all. Let us know how it goes! 

[Fourputt]

19 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Don't even have to do that:

Not that I'd ever refuse.  I'd be surprised that anyone would.  But I'm guessing that the decision is there because it happened. 

I replied under the expectation that the request was accepted.  In that case you are obligated to do your best to remove the flagstick before the ball hits it.

[DaveP043]

13 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I replied under the expectation that the request was accepted.  In that case you are obligated to do your best to remove the flagstick before the ball hits it.

Interestingly,  your opponent (or fellow competitor) is penalized if you're tending and the ball strikes the flagstick, as long as you didn't deliberately leave the flagstick in place:  From the end of Decision 17-3/2

Quote

If B's failure to remove the flagstick was not deliberate (e.g., the flagstick stuck in the hole-liner or B was distracted and did not see A putt), since B was acting on A's behalf, A incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3. A must play the ball as it lies. B incurs no penalty.

 

[Golfingdad]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Interestingly,  your opponent (or fellow competitor) is penalized if you're tending and the ball strikes the flagstick, as long as you didn't deliberately leave the flagstick in place:  From the end of Decision 17-3/2

I've known that was the case, and I have never seen it happen, and don't expect to ... but that is a really lame rule.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I've known that was the case, and I have never seen it happen, and don't expect to ... but that is a really lame rule.

It's off topic, but who are you going to penalize? The guy doing the favor of attending the flag? If you penalized the flag attender, more (most?) people would decline to attend the flag.

And in practice, how often does the flagstick get stuck in the hole?

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

I've known that was the case, and I have never seen it happen, and don't expect to ... but that is a really lame rule.

I don't think I've seen it happen, although I've seen guys struggle to get it out, and the putt (luckily) missed the hole.  And in match play, player A loses the hole immediately, and player B can't do anything to make up for his mistake like concede the next putt, or even concede the hole.  I suppose a guilty conscience or sense of fair play could lead him to concede the NEXT hole to make things even out.  Just goes to show, its a good idea to make sure the stick is loose before someone putts.

[rehmwa]

5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

 ... but that is a really lame rule.

Oh crap,,,,, here we go

[Golfingdad]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

And in practice, how often does the flagstick get stuck in the hole?

To repeat:

26 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

... I have never seen it happen, and don't expect to ... 

:)

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's off topic, but who are you going to penalize?

Nobody.