Course hole cutting condition/quality

[jkelley9]

Just saw a high a nice high res shot of one of the holes on on TV for the albertsons boise open. The hole edge looks immaculate. A very sharp edge. 

At my home course and any courses I've played in this area, the hole edge has always been at least slightly compromised. Usually a little frayed/bent down slightly. Sometimes some decent nicks in the edge.

Does a sharp hole cut offer an advantage or disadvantage? I know some people are sticklers about the hole and I've even played with guys that would always go up to the hole and "repair" it to their liking before putting. Very slow behavior. I just putt at the hole whatever condition it's in unless I see a nice chunk out of it or a severe case of someone stepping on the hole. 

I'm curious if anyone has any data on compromised holes and the make % shift? I know this is splitting hairs, but this is more (almost exclusively) of a curiosity than how I feel like it may be impacting my personal scores. Although, I do have a LOT of lip-outs nowadays.

[skeedawg]

I don't have any hard date, but my experience is it depends on the course. In my area, Dallas, there are quite a few public courses to play. The better the course the better the hole cut, and more ragged for cheaper courses that aren't managed as closely. 

[WUTiger]

Legend has it that Old Tom Morris invented the cup liner to "level the playing field" in the late 1800s. It seems that the wealthy players entering tournaments would pay the starter money (AKA bribe) to have an afternoon tee-off time. That way, the old unlined holes would be larger after lunch because of all the balls rolling in, and people nipping the edges with their hands to get their ball out. 

Note that "conventional wisdom" said the afternoon holes were larger, and thus better. No one did a statistical analysis back then to tell whether it was true, or just conjecture. (Did rough edges ever deflect putts?)

In ideal modern golfdom, the greens crew cuts new cups early each morning. At some courses the crew might skip the cup cuts on low-play days to save time (and money, if the course is struggling).

[Hardspoon]

39 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

I know some people are sticklers about the hole and I've even played with guys that would always go up to the hole and "repair" it to their liking before putting. Very slow behavior.

It is also illegal (a two-stroke penalty). You can only repair damage to the hole if it is caused by a ball mark.

42 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

Does a sharp hole cut offer an advantage or disadvantage? 

Intuitively, general wear at the edges of a hole would increase the effective size of the hole, and make putting easier. Actual damage might have the opposite affect in certain angles.

Honestly, though, I'd guess you are talking about differences that would affect a putt every 20 rounds or something similarly insignificant.

[jkelley9]

15 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

Intuitively, general wear at the edges of a hole would increase the effective size of the hole, and make putting easier. Actual damage might have the opposite affect in certain angles.

Honestly, though, I'd guess you are talking about differences that would affect a putt every 20 rounds or something similarly insignificant.

This is what I was thinking, but when I look at the edges of the holes I play I see a lot of raised area at times. For example, the edge of the grass is creeping over the edge of the hole. 

I do agree with you however, that we'r probably talking about a make/no make every 20 rounds or something maybe.

[stealthduffer]

Our company league plays at a course that, it appears, changes pin locations every week or so.  Sometimes it seems that the cup is dramatically smaller than it should be.  Putts lip out and roll off pretty frequently.  

Fortunately my home course has great greens and holes are crisply cut and cups are properly set.  We do use the cup liners (the sleeves that extend from the cup itself just below the top of the hole) which I think helps the edges crisp throughout the day.

 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 9/19/2016 at 9:45 AM, jkelley9 said:

This is what I was thinking, but when I look at the edges of the holes I play I see a lot of raised area at times. For example, the edge of the grass is creeping over the edge of the hole. 

I do agree with you however, that we'r probably talking about a make/no make every 20 rounds or something maybe.

This depends upon a couple of things. For one, how often are new holes cut where you play? I've played several local courses where the cups could stay in place for 2-3 days straight. Then, you get the guys who can't bend over any more raking the ball out of the cup with their putterhead, and breaking down the rim of the cup! By the end of the 3rd day, the edges of those holes are looking pretty ragged.

And I've recently seen courses that have "low rise" cup liners install "collars" that sit on top of the liners, apparently to protect the rim of the cup. We've found these askew, tilted half out of the hole on one side, and completely out of the hole and lying on the green!

Make or no make regardless, you have to wonder about the kind of golfer that would do that and just let it go.

[Fourputt]

On 9/18/2016 at 4:19 PM, WUTiger said:

Legend has it that Old Tom Morris invented the cup liner to "level the playing field" in the late 1800s. It seems that the wealthy players entering tournaments would pay the starter money (AKA bribe) to have an afternoon tee-off time. That way, the old unlined holes would be larger after lunch because of all the balls rolling in, and people nipping the edges with their hands to get their ball out. 

Note that "conventional wisdom" said the afternoon holes were larger, and thus better. No one did a statistical analysis back then to tell whether it was true, or just conjecture. (Did rough edges ever deflect putts?)

In ideal modern golfdom, the greens crew cuts new cups early each morning. At some courses the crew might skip the cup cuts on low-play days to save time (and money, if the course is struggling).

It was also a practice until some point in the 19th century that the player formed a "tee" using sand excavated from the previous hole (there is occasional mention in the early 19th century rules at various clubs of "making a tee", which refers to building it from the excavated sand).  The rules during that period are sufficiently vague on this that I'm not certain when this practice was discontinued.  Obviously, this practice would change the hole significantly if there was very much play between hole cuttings. 

In 1842 you were still required to tee your ball at a point between 2 and 4 clublengths from the previous hole.  In 1858 the distance was lengthened to between 6 and 8 clublengths (note that in both cases the area was 2 clublengths wide, the same as the depth of the teeing ground today).  It was sometime between 1858 and 1888 that the practice of creating and marking a separate teeing ground came into vogue.

[DaveP043]

More historic info.  As @Fourputt says, originally a player started relatively close (as close as one clublength in the earliest rules) to the previously completed hole, taking a bit of sand from that hole to make a "tee."  The hole would obviously become enlarged as play went on.  The (optional) use of a separate teeing ground was first mentioned in the R&A rules in 1875.  From what I've read, a "standard" hole cutter was first used at Musselburgh (one-time home of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, who now play at Muirfield) in the 1820's.  When the R&A standardized the size of the hole in 1891, they apparently adopted the size that had been used at Musselburgh for decades.

Much of my understanding of the history of the rules, and the changes over the years, comes from this site:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/

[Fourputt]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

More historic info.  As @Fourputt says, originally a player started relatively close (as close as one clublength in the earliest rules) to the previously completed hole, taking a bit of sand from that hole to make a "tee."  The hole would obviously become enlarged as play went on.  The (optional) use of a separate teeing ground was first mentioned in the R&A rules in 1875.  From what I've read, a "standard" hole cutter was first used at Musselburgh (one-time home of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, who now play at Muirfield) in the 1820's.  When the R&A standardized the size of the hole in 1891, they apparently adopted the size that had been used at Musselburgh for decades.

Another interesting fact is that it's just a coincidence that the tool that became the standard was 4.25" in diameter.  

Quote

The exact reasons for why that first tool cut holes at the now-standard diameter are lost to history. But it was almost certainly a completely arbitrary thing, a notion supported by the story (perhaps apocryphal) that the tool was built from some excess pipe that was laying about the Musselburgh links. 

 

[Liko81]

All I know is that if the grounds crew is in a hurry that day, I have to putt right at the hole, because when they pull the cutter out, if they're not being careful, they'll leave a raised lip around the edge of the hole that sends anything but a perfect putt off to the sides.

I also find that a damaged/worn hole tends to lip-out more, as the ball will spin around the edge, hit a discontinuity and pop back up onto the green. However, the same putt played to a perfectly cut, immaculate cup would probably miss wide and continue straight.

[SG11118]

A lot of the hole condition has to do with the condition of the greens.  If you have a nice rolled green with a short cut of bent grass, you'll be able to cut a much sharper edge than if you have a shaggy soft green.

[mcanadiens]

For all the many shortcomings that certain area courses have, the condition of the holes is the very least of it. I can't remember ever thinking that the condition of the hole itself cost me a stroke. Now the greens, bunkers and fairways are a different story all together.

 

[paininthenuts]

My friend sometimes refers to me as a Brazilian putter, as I quite often shave either side of the hole 

Edited September 22, 2016 by paininthenuts

[WUTiger]

15 hours ago, Liko81 said:

All I know is that if the grounds crew is in a hurry that day, I have to putt right at the hole, because when they pull the cutter out, if they're not being careful, they'll leave a raised lip around the edge of the hole that sends anything but a perfect putt off to the sides. ...

Years ago, I talked to a greens crew member about placing new cups. He said the cup cutter really should take a baker's rolling pin and roll it back and forth across the newly sunk cup to prevent any raised lips. I've never seen it done, but I imagine it would make for a smoother area right around the hole.

[DaveP043]

About 40 years ago I spent a summer working at a golf course, and one of my jobs was to cut new cups almost every day.  We used a tool much like this one:

http://www.bmsproducts.com/products/cup-setting-tools?variant=996394497

to set the plastic cup liner to the correct depth.  When used properly, the flange should also press down the slightly raised area that can occur when the cup cutter is pulled from the hole.  It takes virtually no time to do that properly.

Another thing I've seen is later in the day,  when foot traffic around the hole can slightly depress the area around the hole.  However, nobody steps immediately next to the hole, so that area stays a little higher than the depressed area surrounding it, leaving a mini-volcano effect.

[phan52]

16 hours ago, Liko81 said:

All I know is that if the grounds crew is in a hurry that day, I have to putt right at the hole, because when they pull the cutter out, if they're not being careful, they'll leave a raised lip around the edge of the hole that sends anything but a perfect putt off to the sides.

I also find that a damaged/worn hole tends to lip-out more, as the ball will spin around the edge, hit a discontinuity and pop back up onto the green. However, the same putt played to a perfectly cut, immaculate cup would probably miss wide and continue straight.

That was a recurring issue at our club because the head greenkeeper was sending out amateur crew members to cut the holes. We put the onus on him and he now trains them properly to cut the holes and he has to do it himself for tournaments.

[Fourputt]

16 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

About 40 years ago I spent a summer working at a golf course, and one of my jobs was to cut new cups almost every day.  We used a tool much like this one:

http://www.bmsproducts.com/products/cup-setting-tools?variant=996394497

to set the plastic cup liner to the correct depth.  When used properly, the flange should also press down the slightly raised area that can occur when the cup cutter is pulled from the hole.  It takes virtually no time to do that properly.

Another thing I've seen is later in the day,  when foot traffic around the hole can slightly depress the area around the hole.  However, nobody steps immediately next to the hole, so that area stays a little higher than the depressed area surrounding it, leaving a mini-volcano effect.

This tool is the same as the one (or similar) that they use at my home course.  Takes no time to slip that into the hole after it's cut and just step on it to press down any possible raised lip.