Am I being an A**Hole

[David in FL]

8 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

That is poorly written.  What does "not lost a clear hole" mean.  If you are right behind the group in front of you you have "not lost a clear hole", or 10 seconds behind, or 1 minute behind...  There can be no consistency in interpreting that rule.

If you take that rule literally, a faster twosome or even a single has the right to just march through a completely full course of foursomes at their own pace.  

This rule is not followed in my experience which renders it moot.

 

Just because it's not followed, "in your experience", it's rendered moot?  

My 4-some let a single through just last week, even though we were right up against another group and playing at close to a 3 hour pace.  We could see that there was plenty of room ahead of the other group so we let the single blast through.  The other group did the same, and even though we finished in what anyone would call a reasonable pace, I imagine that that single appreciated that he was able to play even quicker, without having to wait on every shot.  Done properly, he didn't slow either of us down at all.

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, David in FL said:

Just because it's not followed, "in your experience", it's rendered moot?  

My 4-some let a single through just last week, even though we were right up against another group and playing at close to a 3 hour pace.  We could see that there was plenty of room ahead of the other group so we let the single blast through.  The other group did the same, and even though we finished in what anyone would call a reasonable pace, I imagine that that single appreciated that he was able to play even quicker, without having to wait on every shot.  Done properly, he didn't slow either of us down at all.

Big difference between a 4some allowing a single through and a 2some, following a 4some, allowing a 3some through.

[David in FL]

41 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Big difference between a 4some allowing a single through and a 2some, following a 4some, allowing a 3some through.

The point that I was specifically responding to was, just because you're on top of another group, it still may be appropriate to allow others through.  Just because @No Mulligans hadn't experienced it, didn't mean that the concept was moot by any means...

And fwiw, our relatively fast group has allowed 5-somes through....

[LAGolfer40]

I think it may have been a little over the top to push them if they were keeping pace with the 4-some in front. So many new/hack golfers really try and stay on "pace" by not trying to hit up into the people playing in front of them. Also, the guys didn't know anything about your normal tee-times or your quick rate of play, so they likely had no clue you guys usually breeze through a round. 

I think the right move would have been to let it be, knowing they had a 4some in front, then just dealing with it at the turn (after giving your buddy a text/heads up to come help out). 

[Kalnoky]

22 minutes ago, LAGolfer40 said:

So many new/hack golfers really try and stay on "pace" by not trying to hit up into the people playing in front of them.

Well, then here is a  germane question for anyone to answer: am I supposed to hit up into the people playing in front of me, even if nobody is behind me? I will usually not do this unless its busy (i.e., holidays & weekends) and I'm in a convoy of groups.

What is the proper etiquette when the course is not busy? 

After a long day of work at a stressful job I'd rather not catch & join up with some random scalawags. I prefer to take a leak in the forest and enjoy a little (rare) quiet time.

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Kalnoky

[DaveP043]

16 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

Well, then here is a  germane question for anyone to answer: am I supposed to hit up into the people playing in front of me, even if nobody is behind me? I will usually not do this unless its busy (i.e., holidays & weekends) and I'm in a convoy of groups.

What is the proper etiquette when the course is not busy? 

The proper etiquette, no matter how crowded the course is, is to NEVER hit up into the people in front of you.  I'm pretty sure that what @kpaulhus would have preferred is for the twosome to stay as close as possible while still being safe, so that the foursome in front would notice the twosome and invite them to play through.  That's how I interpret his suggestion that the twosome "push" the foursome.  

In a vacuum, I'd expect the same thing from the twosome. If the twosome was me and a buddy, I'd probably be doing just that, staying close and hoping to play through, unless I knew for sure that a number of groups were stacked up ahead of the foursome, in which case I'd play at whatever pace we could and do my best to enjoy the day.  Learning after the fact that the twosome were prospective members, new to the course and apparently kind of new to golf, would alter my expectations of them a bit, and nudge me towards cutting them some slack.  My initial answer in this post, slightly critical of @kpaulhus, was made knowing the things that @kpaulhus learned later.  Without that knowledge, I'd bet my answer would be different.

[dave s]

Here's the deal:  You want to play through the group in front of you due to slow play.  Almost ALWAYS, slow play isn't the cause of the group directly in front of you.  They can't go anywhere, either.

So, you press the issue and let's say the group allows you to play through.  Now, THAT group is waiting on YOUR group on every tee box and approach shot because there is no where for YOUR group to go.

My solution: Make sure you play with people who are interesting and fun to be around.  This way, when you find yourself in the midst of a 5-hour round, (heaven forbid for you speed golfers) the time waiting passes pleasantly.

Slow down.  Enjoy the day and your company and you'll worry a lot less about pace of play.

dave

[Kalnoky]

55 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The proper etiquette, no matter how crowded the course is, is to NEVER hit up into the people in front of you.  

Thank you. That is exactly what I have assumed to be true from day one. That's how I prefer to play and also respect other players. But unfortunately it is not what I see out there. Unfortunately the only place I see people not hitting into other people is on the first tee. This is a lot of folks idea of "pushing". 

  

Edited September 28, 2016 by Kalnoky

[kpaulhus]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The proper etiquette, no matter how crowded the course is, is to NEVER hit up into the people in front of you.  I'm pretty sure that what @kpaulhus would have preferred is for the twosome to stay as close as possible while still being safe, so that the foursome in front would notice the twosome and invite them to play through.  That's how I interpret his suggestion that the twosome "push" the foursome.  

In a vacuum, I'd expect the same thing from the twosome. If the twosome was me and a buddy, I'd probably be doing just that, staying close and hoping to play through, unless I knew for sure that a number of groups were stacked up ahead of the foursome, in which case I'd play at whatever pace we could and do my best to enjoy the day.  Learning after the fact that the twosome were prospective members, new to the course and apparently kind of new to golf, would alter my expectations of them a bit, and nudge me towards cutting them some slack.  My initial answer in this post, slightly critical of @kpaulhus, was made knowing the things that @kpaulhus learned later.  Without that knowledge, I'd bet my answer would be different.

I would never hit into a group just to give them a heads up or make them notice that I am close. That is uncalled for.

Someone asked "if I had known that the course was full of foursomes ahead, would I have acted the same?" Well the answer frankly is, no. This is a private club, I see the tee sheet before I tee off becasue I like to know who is ahead of me and whatnot so you can wave hi between holes. Most of us are a close group of golfers. Had it been foursome after foursome then I wouldve just had to suck it up and play in 4 hours.

With that said, I knew that there was 40 mins between the foursome and the next group ahead of them. Once we go through the two some of new guys, and the foursome we didnt see anyone ahead of us until we got to our drives on 18 fairway, and a group was walking off the green.

 

Another update: I spoke to the assistant pro who handled the situation and is currently giving lessons to the new guy. I asked if he felt it was appropriate to write an apology to the guy and if he thought I handled the situation wrong. I admitted that I shouldn't have asked them to push the group ahead and the assistant pro said I was fine. It wasn't a big deal, and that the two some had a good time either way. He said I didnt need to send an email or even worry about it because even the new golfer said that he probably was going to stick to tennis and would hardly dabble in golf. He didnt think it was worth upgrading his membership because he is more of a tennis player than a golfer. Fine. May not ever see the guy on the course again. No skin off my back, and Im not worried about it. If I do see him, I'll remember and handle any situation differently. 

 

A lot of guys suggest skipping holes and/or coming back to play them later...that isn't realistic when I run a game and the course is most usually busy. We are usually in the first hour of tee times and the course runs at a good pace until 3 or so on the weekends, so skipping holes is out of the question. 

[Shooting29]

3 hours ago, dave s said:

Here's the deal:  You want to play through the group in front of you due to slow play.  Almost ALWAYS, slow play isn't the cause of the group directly in front of you.  They can't go anywhere, either.

So, you press the issue and let's say the group allows you to play through.  Now, THAT group is waiting on YOUR group on every tee box and approach shot because there is no where for YOUR group to go.

My solution: Make sure you play with people who are interesting and fun to be around.  This way, when you find yourself in the midst of a 5-hour round, (heaven forbid for you speed golfers) the time waiting passes pleasantly.

Slow down.  Enjoy the day and your company and you'll worry a lot less about pace of play.

dave

A 5-hour round.

Slow down. 

So you are the problem. Golf should never take 5 hours or even 4. I work rotating shifts and when I am on midnights I go from work straight to the course and tee off around 730am. My friend and I don't run and we read putts. We take the flag out and putt out. I get home and am in bed by 9:30am. Yes, we play 18 by the rules in less than 2hrs.

People are slow golfers because they piddle ef around. They wait until they are away to start getting ready. They take two or three practice swings then duff it. They hit their drive 200 then wait for the green to clear 300 away. They couldn't get there if they tee it up again. They park or set their bag on the wrong side of the green. They take their wedge to hit a chip and then walk back to their bag to get their putter. They will leave the flag laying on the green while everyone putts out instead of one of the first to finish grabbing it and being at the ready to return it to the hole. They don't know their game and look for their ball no where near where it is. They sit beside the green recording scores or worse, air counting. They go to the next tee and instead of playing ready golf they all wait for the guy with the honor who is in the trees taking a leak. These reasons and many like them are why rounds take over 4 hours. 

People who play fast don't run or really do anything special they are just efficient. No wasted movement and always moving forward. 

[Golfingdad]

36 minutes ago, Shooting29 said:

A 5-hour round.

Slow down. 

So you are the problem. Golf should never take 5 hours or even 4. I work rotating shifts and when I am on midnights I go from work straight to the course and tee off around 730am. My friend and I don't run and we read putts. We take the flag out and putt out. I get home and am in bed by 9:30am. Yes, we play 18 by the rules in less than 2hrs.

People are slow golfers because they piddle ef around. They wait until they are away to start getting ready. They take two or three practice swings then duff it. They hit their drive 200 then wait for the green to clear 300 away. They couldn't get there if they tee it up again. They park or set their bag on the wrong side of the green. They take their wedge to hit a chip and then walk back to their bag to get their putter. They will leave the flag laying on the green while everyone putts out instead of one of the first to finish grabbing it and being at the ready to return it to the hole. They don't know their game and look for their ball no where near where it is. They sit beside the green recording scores or worse, air counting. They go to the next tee and instead of playing ready golf they all wait for the guy with the honor who is in the trees taking a leak. These reasons and many like them are why rounds take over 4 hours. 

People who play fast don't run or really do anything special they are just efficient. No wasted movement and always moving forward. 

You completely misread what he said.  Although he is slightly mistaken in that his scenario doesn't quite apply to the OP, he is talking about people who are trying to go faster than all of the many groups in front of them.  He's talking about that guy who's all stressed out on the freeway because he needs to be there NOW and he keeps changing lanes back and forth and back and forth and yet he's not moving any faster than the rest of us.  But unlike commuting, golf is supposed to be a fun and leisurely activity, so he's simply saying that if you find yourself in a golf traffic jam, relax and remember why you are out there in the first place.  (Presumably) because you enjoy the game and likely the company you are with.

[bkuehn1952]

49 minutes ago, Shooting29 said:

... I go from work straight to the course and tee off around 730am. My friend and I don't run and we read putts. We take the flag out and putt out. I get home and am in bed by 9:30am. Yes, we play 18 by the rules in less than 2hrs...

Why do we always end up comparing apples and oranges?  A 2-some in a cart early on a weekday morning with handicap indexes around 1.0 or 2.0 compared to a foursome of golfers with an average index of 10.0 walking (or maybe carting) on a weekend morning. I am sorry, "efficient playing" does not explain the difference. 

[Brad W]

1 hour ago, Shooting29 said:

A 5-hour round.

Slow down. 

So you are the problem. Golf should never take 5 hours or even 4. I work rotating shifts and when I am on midnights I go from work straight to the course and tee off around 730am. My friend and I don't run and we read putts. We take the flag out and putt out. I get home and am in bed by 9:30am. Yes, we play 18 by the rules in less than 2hrs.

People are slow golfers because they piddle ef around. They wait until they are away to start getting ready. They take two or three practice swings then duff it. They hit their drive 200 then wait for the green to clear 300 away. They couldn't get there if they tee it up again. They park or set their bag on the wrong side of the green. They take their wedge to hit a chip and then walk back to their bag to get their putter. They will leave the flag laying on the green while everyone putts out instead of one of the first to finish grabbing it and being at the ready to return it to the hole. They don't know their game and look for their ball no where near where it is. They sit beside the green recording scores or worse, air counting. They go to the next tee and instead of playing ready golf they all wait for the guy with the honor who is in the trees taking a leak. These reasons and many like them are why rounds take over 4 hours. 

People who play fast don't run or really do anything special they are just efficient. No wasted movement and always moving forward. 

since you hit nearly every ball perfect, and there are just two of you, then I'd imagine you would have a pretty quick pace.  But I don't think it is really fair to say someone playing at the generally accepted pace is a part of the problem

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Shooting29 said:

People who play fast don't run or really do anything special they are just efficient. No wasted movement and always moving forward. 

 

9 minutes ago, Brad W said:

since you hit nearly every ball perfect, and there are just two of you, then I'd imagine you would have a pretty quick pace.  But I don't think it is really fair to say someone playing at the generally accepted pace is a part of the problem

I'm pretty sure that the point of the original post, or of MOST of the following discussions, was NOT to specifically discuss slow play, or fast play, or the difference between the two.  Those kinds of issues may be more appropriate to discuss here:

 

[Shooting29]

I don't think the OP was being an ass. I think people who are slow and think 4-5 hour rounds are acceptable are the a-holes.

[Brad W]

5 minutes ago, Shooting29 said:

I don't think the OP was being an ass. I think people who are slow and think 4-5 hour rounds are acceptable are the a-holes.

well, considering four hours, give or take a few minutes, seems to be the generally accepted pace of play, I think you should re-evaluate who  the a hole is

[Shooting29]

2 minutes ago, Brad W said:

well, considering four hours, give or take a few minutes, seems to be the generally accepted pace of play, I think you should re-evaluate who  the a hole is

and there in lies the problem. it is only accepted by people who play slow. Not acceptable in my group or our Sunday match. If that makes me an ass at least I'm an ass not holding anyone up.

[Moppy]

3 hours ago, Shooting29 said:

People are slow golfers because they piddle ef around.

You know, sometimes. I have found though that as I have improved, my times have gone way down. An hour and a half to walk nine. It used to take me over two hours. I don't hurry any more than I did, I read the putts the same, I still take a practice swing or two. I actually hurry less, I used to pick up on holes, or not even look for balls and just drop one. It's just that now I progress towards the hole significantly with each swing, balls are easier to find if they are usually in the short grass,

This past weekend, I hit a bucket before playing, the range is right next to the first tee, across a little drive. A couple got to the first tee in a cart just as I walked to the range. I hit a whole bucket of balls, crossed the road to the first tee, and they were still playing the first hole about 150 yds out from the tee, looking for balls, I think. Anyway, they waited for me on the second hole and let me play through, so I couldn't be mad. But wow.