More realistic scoring for amateurs

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Look, it's not a variation. It's golf. I call it amateur golf. It's golf that lots more people can be good at. It's not Pro golf. 

Golf, to me, means playing as much a possible by the rules of golf.  I include casual golf, where strict rule enforcement isn't appropriate.  I call it "golf" whether the golfer shoots 67 or 127, and plays largely by the rules.  The only difference between amateur golf and pro golf, to me, is prize money.  Quality of the play doesn't matter in my definition of golf..  

As I've said, I absolutely support your choice to play "200-yard golf", and agree that it could make the game more enjoyable for lots of players.  I've never said that someone should avoid trying it.  It sounds like fun.  Its simply not going to be my choice.

[Kalnoky]

1 minute ago, Hacker James said:

well, this has been addressed by those who simply say, why not just play executive courses? You also made your point that it was not the same thing. If I understand you correctly, it gives you more enjoyment in going around a typical course with topography, hazards, and use off all your clubs that you might not find on the executive or golf league type courses. 

I don't know what exec courses are like down in Las Vegas, but around here there are plenty of hazards and elevation changes on a short course. And you only have to hit your driver 3-4 times tops.

 

6 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

If you're a twenty handicap, you're not even close to it. You suck at it. That's just true. If you're twenty plus--maybe even 10 or 15--you're not going to get any better by playing from the blacks, or blues or whites, for that matter.

If you're not learning then your not improving, and this ^^^ would be true. But most 10's were once 20's.. Everyone pays their dues. And people who study the game get better.

You might want to find an instructor. It is the same swing for all clubs, including the driver. But if your swing mechanics are bad, you'll need someone to tweak them, or else you'll never enjoy the game. The driver is a fickle mistress, intolerant of little mistakes.   

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

"Golf is shrinking as an industry. More people stop playing golf than start. Golf is too expensive, too hard, and takes too long. The average golfer can't break 100 following the rules of golf." Are any of these statements false? I am thinking of myself as one of the people these facts address. I am one of the masses, many of whom are quitting golf.

For millions of golfers, several of those statements are wrong. Golf is not "too expensive" for me. For many others that play it. If it was "too expensive" for them they wouldn't play.

Golf participation is cyclical. It's actually begun to rebound. You're citing info that's a little outdated. Golf has had a few boom periods, followed by adjustment periods. We're on the other side of an adjustment period right now, by most accounts.

Neither a boom nor an adjustment means that wholesale changes have to be made to golf.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

What I'm saying is Play 200 is something that would work for these folks, speed up rounds, isn't too hard, and is more fun.

Despite your many posts which speak to the opposite… nobody's said that you're not welcome to do that if you want, and people are glad for you to do that. Have fun.

I too disagreed with your statement that the "vast majority" weren't having fun playing golf from the tee to the green. That's complete bullshit. If they weren't having fun doing it, why do millions do it?

I don't even think many would have "more" fun playing golf from 200 yards out. A lot of people LIKE to hit the driver. Yeah, they lose a bunch of balls and score like crap, but the one or two drives a round that work out well bring them back time after time.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Nobody quits playing golf because they can't putt.

Not true. Many of us have known guys who quit after developing the yips, for example.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

So, why would you not recommend to someone who says golf is too hard to Play 200?

Golf is hard, but that's not the main thing that stops people from playing. It's time first, cost second. You're not going to get a discount playing every hole from 200 yards, so the expense thing might even become a bigger issue.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

That's all I'm saying, man, and thanks for the support for the idea. If people here try it, and don't see any purpose, then I'll shut up. But if you try it and think it might be a good idea for some, would you recommend it?

Why are you being so adversarial throughout this thread?

People have been supportive of you doing whatever you want to enjoy golf, while disagreeing occasionally with some of the statements you've made about other golfers or golf at large.

Play 200 is not for me. It's not even for my 14-year-old daughter. If it works for you, cool.

Heck @Blackjack Don, I've been promoting (both in LSW and here on the site, and elsewhere) golfers playing from the forward-most tees once a month. It's fun, it's different, and you can shoot lower scores than ever, but still get to hit your driver, etc. I have my college team do it. My daughter would tee up from where my drive finished when she was younger (starting every hole from the same yardage seems a bit boring to me).

Let's drop the adversarial approach, please. Nobody's telling you how to enjoy your own game.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

I am seeing this as a way to improve golf for everyone. I think it might speed up the game, a lot. Make it easier, too. That would grow the game. So why not?

This doesn't "improve golf" for me, and several people here have said that while they're happy you've found a way to enjoy golf more, it's not for them, either.

Some people are perfectly happy to shoot 92, spend five hours with their buddies, have a beer or two perhaps, tell some dirty jokes, and make an occasional good shot or putt.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

What I'm saying is Play 200 is something that would work for these folks, speed up rounds, isn't too hard, and is more fun. Tee shots are hard.

Also… many golfers find tee shots to be easier than hitting a ball off the ground.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

While I dispute your assertions that most people playing golf by the rules are enjoying it, I assert that most people don't play by the rules. They don't find it fun. But those are opinions without much data to support either one of us.

I think @DaveP043 is simply saying that whether it's their league or whatever "rules" people are playing by, they're enjoying golf. The "vast majority" as you stated would quit if they weren't enjoying the game.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

They don't find it fun. But those are opinions without much data to support either one of us.

That's not true. There are millions of golfers. They'd quit if it wasn't fun.

I taught an 83-year-old woman last year. She hits a high-lofted driver about 100 yards. She rarely breaks 60 for nine holes. She loves golf, and plays three times a week.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Look, it's not a variation. It's golf. I call it amateur golf. It's golf that lots more people can be good at.

I don't get that. They're going to be just as good as they are now. You're removing a tee shot (even though many senior golfers would still hit driver from 200 yards). You're not fundamentally changing golf. They're still going to be "bad" at "Play 200". Swinging a club at 75+ MPH and hitting a ball very precisely is still difficult.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

If you're a twenty handicap, you're not even close to it. You suck at it. That's just true.

What's not true: that those 20 handicaps aren't having fun.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

You're not going to get any better at Pro golf unless you have lots and lots of time to invest improving.

That's also not true (depending on your definition of "lots"). I've helped guys go from breaking 100 to breaking 80 in a year, with an hour or so of practice per week. I don't call that "lots" of time to practice.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

I can go out and break 90 at 200. Add my driver and I'm toast. I can practice my driver and improve my middle irons with Play 200, ONE DAY A WEEK. Nobody who is a ten handicap is going to improve at "real golf" devoting one day a week. It's even silly to think it.

Don, c'mon, enough of the blanket statements. You don't know what you're talking about when you say things like this.

---

Executive summary:

• I, like most others here, are glad you've found a way to enjoy golf more. Good for you. I don't care what other people do so long as it's not impeding on the rights or enjoyment of others.
• I don't think you're right at all that most golfers don't enjoy golf. I know for a fact that many golfers enjoy driving the most.
• You're new to the game, and yet you seem to have a very myopic view of the game, and discard the opinions and experiences of those with a lifetime of experience. You seem to think far more people are like you than others would say.

[NJpatbee]

Most executive courses require less distance than a championship length course, but at the executive course where I am you need to drive the ball on the 3 par 4's and the par 5.  The longest par 4 is 400 yards, and the par 5 is a 450 yard dogleg left, no monsters but most golfers need to use a long club several times   Yes there are 5 par 3's but one is 210 yards.  It may just be a regional thing but it sounds like the "200 yard course" is closer to what we call a "pitch and putt"., with holes from 75 - 150 yards.  Some of the driving ranges here have the short course attached.  

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

If you're a twenty handicap, you're not even close to it. You suck at it. That's just true.

I didn't catch this statement until Erik pointed it out. A 20 HC is a pretty decent player.

 

Quote

If you're twenty plus--maybe even 10 or 15--you're not going to get any better by playing from the blacks, or blues or whites, for that matter.

Depends upon why you're a 10 handicap. I can play from the blacks and still have a fun round. A 10HC can basically hit either straight or far enough to make any green within 1 over regulation. Yeah, we suck compared to a Pro, but we can still play good enough to play any course from any tee within typically 1 stroke over regulation. Yes, there are blowup holes, but "typically".

 

Quote

You're not going to get any better at Pro golf unless you have lots and lots of time to invest improving. I can go out and break 90 at 200. Add my driver and I'm toast. I can practice my driver and improve my middle irons with Play 200, ONE DAY A WEEK.

Practice your full swing daily using drills and 5S's of practice, like 5 minutes at a time. You can do that on or off the course, even without a club. Spend about 4 hours a week on the range. Play 4-5 hours once a week. That's basically 10 hours a week.

 

Quote

Nobody who is a ten handicap is going to improve at "real golf" devoting one day a week. It's even silly to think it.

I only play once a week, and am about a 10.

Worse some days and better on others. My handicap is lower because of a really good round that ruined my handicap for any kind of tournament play

[Hacker James]

4 hours ago, Lihu said:

I didn't catch this statement until Erik pointed it out. A 20 HC is a pretty decent player.

 

 

What?  You mean I don't have to slash my wrists at a 19.6?  You just made my day (sorta), not really.....quote Dirty Harry..."A man's gotta know his limitations".

[Fourputt]

On 1/20/2017 at 11:04 AM, Blackjack Don said:

You can choose to play pro golf, or you can play amateur golf. 

Recently in another thread I stated that I believe pros and amateurs are actually playing a different game. We might be close at two feet from the hole, and their chances of making a thirty foot putt aren't any better than ours, but that's about it. They are disappointed with par. I can't manage more than a couple in a row. We simply aren't playing the same stakes. 

Yesterday I heard a suggestion I really like a lot. Every hole is a five. Just count strokes. 18 holes, average is 90. Above or below average? This seems to me to be a much better way of scoring a golf game for amateurs. Much more realistic, and could be more fun than making lots of double bogeys.

I like people who think outside the box. Traditionalists should wear knickers so we can identify them. 

I just see this as poe-tay-toe or poe-tah-toe - its still a spud.  I can't trick my brain into thinking I'm having more fun just by arbitrarily changing the par.  I'd rather be measuring myself by the same yardstick as everyone else, regardless of how poorly I might measure up.

Then too, there are amateurs from scratch to 36 handicap.  Your solution would only reasonably apply to a small percentage of them.  

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

What?  You mean I don't have to slash my wrists at a 19.6?  You just made my day (sorta), not really.....quote Dirty Harry..."A man's gotta know his limitations".

 

Anecdotally, many people I play with say that they "wish they could play bogey golf" when I mention that I got "yet another bogey. . ."

Seriously, though. You play good golf.

 

 

[Hacker James]

@Lihu  thanks, not good enough though. Like everybody else,   "back in the day..yadda, yadda, yadda".  "Wish I didnt know now, what I didnt know then"  (my over used phrase). I happened to mention to somebody the other day concerning claims made by a lot of members of another forum that their average drives were 320 yards.  He said something to the effect "Hell, I can do that, it just takes me more strokes".

Edited January 28, 2017 by Hacker James

[No Mulligans]

Most of my rounds are on an executive 18 or an executive 9.  @Blackjack Don have you tried that?  That would meet your objective of playing shorter holes, at least for the most part expecially if you played from the forward tees.  And it's less expensive and a much quicker round.  Why not do that?

[natureboy]

9 hours ago, Lihu said:

I only play once a week, and am about a 10.

This sounds like you're re-writing your narrative. Didn't you beat a lot of balls in your backyard working on swing/impact. Didn't you play a lot more than maybe you do now to get better?

2 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Most of my rounds are on an executive 18 or an executive 9.  @Blackjack Don have you tried that?  That would meet your objective of playing shorter holes, at least for the most part expecially if you played from the forward tees.  And it's less expensive and a much quicker round.  Why not do that?

Capital idea. Often a nice family / community golf culture around the successful ones.

[Piz]

Realistic scoring is easily obtained.  Simply subtract the putts that should have gone in from your actual total.  If you card an 89, despite 8 putts that really should have dropped, your adjusted-to-more-accurately-reflect-reality score is 81.

[Lihu]

4 hours ago, natureboy said:

This sounds like you're re-writing your narrative. Didn't you beat a lot of balls in your backyard working on swing/impact. Didn't you play a lot more than maybe you do now to get better?

Sure, I do what works, and discard what doesn't.

It's not like I'm trying to prove my "narrative", especially one that didn't work.

 

 

[Blackjack Don]

Okay, I give up. I made my case and it has been soundly rejected by my fellow patients in the psychiatric ward. I may be as crazy about golf as the rest of you, but I'm not so far gone I can't recognize when it's gone on long enough.

I have tried to make a case for this idea. As the thread has gone on, the idea has been clarified in my mind. I still think it's a good idea and worth promoting, but I will desist doing so here. I have not meant to be adversarial. I have tried to cause no offense. I'm sorry it's been seen as argumentative. 

This is not the place for it.

 

[Hatchman]

What was your desired expectation?

[Patch]

11 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Okay, I give up. I made my case and it has been soundly rejected by my fellow patients in the psychiatric ward. I may be as crazy about golf as the rest of you, but I'm not so far gone I can't recognize when it's gone on long enough.

I have tried to make a case for this idea. As the thread has gone on, the idea has been clarified in my mind. I still think it's a good idea and worth promoting, but I will desist doing so here. I have not meant to be adversarial. I have tried to cause no offense. I'm sorry it's been seen as argumentative. 

This is not the place for it.

 

I wouldn't worry to much about making your case, or not. The topic got me to post on it, so that's something. 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Okay, I give up. I made my case and it has been soundly rejected

That's not what happened, but you keep wanting to see it that way, so I've given up trying to stop you.

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

I have tried to make a case for this idea. As the thread has gone on, the idea has been clarified in my mind. I still think it's a good idea and worth promoting, but I will desist doing so here. I have not meant to be adversarial. I have tried to cause no offense. I'm sorry it's been seen as argumentative. 

I think that's also pretty far out of touch with the reactions people had here.

People disagreed with some of the statements you made, because a few were pretty ridiculous, to be honest, but ultimately everyone seemed to say "if doing what you do helps you enjoy the game, go for it."

You're establishing a fairly clear pattern of taking some stance on something, and then doing two things: a) failing to give much weight to those who have far more experience in golf, and even failing to address the many counter-points raised, and b) reacting as if people have been mean, or responded in shock, or otherwise acting as if the conversation has been far more controversial or whatever than it really was.

If that's the kind of member you want to be, well, keep on keepin' on. But people are starting to see that pattern.

[mvmac]

On 1/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

Also… many golfers find tee shots to be easier than hitting a ball off the ground.

Right for most golfers that's the most fun part to see the ball GO FAR. You have a large club head, get to tee the ball up and have the biggest target.

Hitting the ball off the turf is definitely the hardest part of the game. I actually think beginners or occasional golfers should be able to tee the ball up anywhere. Obviously they can already do that but not have it be seen as "bad".